mbhcsf Publish time 22-11-2014 08:14 PM

ribut posted on 22-11-2014 07:30 PM
Cuba baca blk ap yg saya post...teliti kn

Lg satu sy cuma beri APA yg sy faham bila baca ayt...

Cuba jawab soalan saya

U menerima al quran yg diwahyukan kepada nabi muhammad saw a rasul, dan u menolak hadith ?

It doesnt sound logic.u know that?

sam1528 Publish time 22-11-2014 08:47 PM

kid posted on 22-11-2014 06:24 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Thank you bro. Sebelum membaca baik berdoa dulu kepada Allah semoga Syaitan tak ganggu. Buka mata, hati dengan bersih bro, semoga Allah beri petunjuk. Saya hanya menyampiakan, saya boleh salah, tapi Allah (melalui Qur'an) tak pernah salah.

(1). Yang simple macam wudhu, zakat, salat sunat, puasa sunat, ibadah haji. Dalam hadith banyak amalan didalamnya yang lebih dari yang Qur'an suruh.

Tak hairan umat Muslim tak tau kandungan Qur'an (bezanya dengan hadith) kerana kita just mengaji (melagu panjang pendek, tajwid etc) walaupun hafal Qur'an (Arabnya) tapi tak paham apa kandungan Qur'an.

(2). Ayat dibawah nie boleh confirm bahasa Arab nya "hadith" (penterjemah taknak tulis hadith):
- 31:6 Dan ada di antara manusia: orang yang memilih serta membelanjakan hartanya kepada cerita-cerita (hadith) dan perkara-perkara hiburan yang melalaikan; yang berakibat menyesatkan (dirinya dan orang ramai) dari ugama Allah ...
- 45:6 .. maka dengan perkataan (hadith) manakah lagi mereka akan beriman sesudah (kalam) Allah (Qur'an)...
- 7:185 ..Maka kepada berita (hadith) manakah lagi mereka akan beriman sesudah Al Quran itu?
- 77:50 Maka kepada perkataan (hadith) apakah selain Al Quran ini mereka akan beriman?

So hadith sebenar tu hanya Qur'an sahaja. Hadith selain Qur'an kena tolak.

Tambahan:
- 68:36-38 ... Adakah kamu mempunyai sesebuah Kitab (kitab lain selain Qur'an) yang kamu baca dan pelajari? Bahawa di dalam Kitab itu membolehkan kamu mendapat apa sahaja yang kamu pilih (nak)? (Cuba tanya diri sendiri bro, kitab ape selain Qur'an yg semua bro mahu ada didalamnya? Kitab Bukhari? Semua yang bro mahu ada dalam kitab Bukari tu kan? Kerana kitab hadith lengkap, detail detail semua ada kat situ, betul kan?)
- 6:114 Maka patutkah aku mencari hakim selain daripada Allah... (bermakna tak patut mencari hakim/hukum selain Qur'an, patutkah mengikut kitab lain sebagai hakim bro?)


Setakat tu je dulu, kalau panjang sangat membazir gak, bro bukannya setuju dengan pandangan saya pun.

Don't worry bro , ini diskusi.

Spt saya nyatakan , menolak hadith bermakna kita telah menolak 'scholarship' yang berusia ~ 1400 tahun. This is very irresponsible.

Saya setuju yg Quran tak salah. Isu sekarang , pendapat geng hadith : Hadith adalah Quran secara praktikal tapi pendapat geng anti hadith : Hadith adalah kitab baru yg mengantikan Quran.

Sapa yg tak bantah?

(1) Boleh terangkan di mana dalam Quran yg jelaskan secara terperinci cara2 solat and apa yg patut dibaca , berapa % dari pendapatan untuk zakat , cara cara mengerjakan ibadat Haji.

(2) Hadith tak bermakna kenyataan Nabi Muhammad(saw). Secara am , definisi hadith adalah cerita , ungkapan berita. Perkataan Hadith dalam Quran tak semestinya bermakna 'ungkapan Nabi Muhammad(saw) yang telah dibukukan spt Bukhari , Muslim etc' :
The noun “hadith” occurs in the Qur’an twenty three times (4.42, 4.78, 4.87, 4.140, 6.68, 7.185, 12.111, 18.6, 20.9, 31.6, 33.53, 39.23, 45.6, 51.24, 52.34, 53.59, 56.81, 66.3, 68.44, 77.50, 79.15, 85.17, 88.1). Its plural form “ahadith” is found five times (12.6, 12.21, 12.101, 23.44, 34.19). In these twenty eight verses, the term broadly means “narrative,” “story,” “speech,” or “news,” which may or may not be religious. For instance, God describes the Qur’an as “the best of hadith” (39.23), refers to the story of Moses as the “hadith of Moses” (20.9), and says about nations that He destroyed for rejecting the messengers He sent to them “We have made them ahadith” (23.44). Other variations of this term occur in another eight Qur’anic verses (2.76, 18.70, 20.113, 21.2, 26.5, 65.1, 93.11, 99.4).

Of the thirty six occurrences of the term “hadith” only one is linked to something specific to Prophet Muhammad. This is verse 93.11 where the Prophet is commanded by God to speak about His favor to him, i.e. making him a Prophet: “As for the favor of your Lord, haddith (speak about).” But even in this solitary instance, the verb “haddith” is used in its generic meaning. Indeed, the verb is used in another verse to refer to the speech of disbelievers (2.76).

But the term “hadith” has acquired in Islamic literature the very specific meaning of reports about what the Prophet said, did, approved, and disapproved of, explicitly or implicitly. Indeed, hadith is considered as the main source of the “Sunna” or “customary behavior” of the Prophet. The other source is the “sira” or “biography” of the Prophet. It is this technical meaning of the term “hadith” that the rest of this article focuses on.
Macamana Bro boleh kaitkan perkataan hadith dalam Quran dengan hadith spt Bukhari , Muslim etc?

Saya betul2 nak tau pendapat Bro pasal I don't see any objectivity in your opinion.
Last edited by sam1528 on 22-11-2014 08:49 PM

kid Publish time 23-11-2014 02:04 PM

1400 tahun scholarship? Bro dah lupa ke ayat nie?

2:170 And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?

Apa itu "we will follow that which we found our fathers doing", apa yang dah turun temurun (selain Qur'an) bro?
Kalau kita dengar betul betul warning Allah tu, makes you think, betul tak?

Tak kira 1400 atau 5000 tahun, Allah kata ikut apa yang Dia turunkan (Quran), jangan ikut turun temurun, ataupun so called hadith yg dibungkus sanad dan mathan yg mana our forefather doing! Sanad itu turun temurun bro, dari person A turun ke person B, turun ke person C.... sampai 200 tahun kemudian ke Bukhary (dah berapa generasi sampai Bukhary? Mungkin 8 generasi) So Bukhary pun ikut apa yang forefathers dia kata kerana dia ingat forefathers dia have been guided?. Ayat 2:170 tu sebenarnya warning bagi Bukhary jugak, tapi dia skip benda tu.

So percaya dengan sanad bermakna kita kena percaya 8 generasi oral mouth to mouth tradition yang tak buat silap sikit pun! Takyah 8 generasi, apa yang semalam kawan kita cakap pun sekarang kita boleh lupa, ataupun tak akurat 100% lagi, macamana pulak nak preserve accuracy selama 200 tahunn (secara oral pulak)? Tak mungkin 100% akurat bro.

Bro ingat tak macaman umat Nasrani sesat? Kerana mereka ikut ajaran paderi mereka yang dah ribu tahun jugak! Mereka tak ikut Injil.

Apasal bro tak ambik iktibar daripada tu?

Bro kalau nak betul betul objective dan nak tegakkan hadith Bukhari, so bagi saya satu ayat Quran saja yang cakap nabi Muhammad ada hadith.

Please bro.

Satu saja. Last edited by kid on 23-11-2014 02:26 PM

sam1528 Publish time 23-11-2014 08:27 PM

kid posted on 23-11-2014 02:04 PM static/image/common/back.gif
1400 tahun scholarship? Bro dah lupa ke ayat nie?

2:170 And when it is said to them, "Follow what ...
Silap tu bro.

Quran2:170 adalah kritikan Allah terhadap geng kafir , Tafsir Ibn KathirAllah states that if the disbelievers and polytheists are called to follow what Allah has revealed to His Messenger and abandon the practices of misguidance and ignorance that they indulge in, they will say, "Rather. We shall follow what we found our fathers following,'' meaning, worshipping the idols and the false deities. Allah criticized their reasoning:

﴿أَوَلَوْ كَانَ ءَابَاؤُهُمْ﴾

((Would they do that!) even though their fathers), meaning, those whom they follow and whose practices they imitate, and:
1400 years scholarship adalah koleksi ilmu tafsiran Quran , Hadith etc. Soalan yg bro belum jawab. Mana bukti yg geng hadith meninggalkan Quran? Kami gunakan Hadith sebagai penerangan praktik kepada Quran.

Mana bro dapat fahaman yg Hadith muncul hanya lepas ~ 200 thn selepas Nabi Muhammad(saw)? Kita ambil contoh , hadith mutawatir - macamanaia boleh korup pasal ia disampaikan oleh ramai orang.

Oral Tradition tak boleh dipercayai? Quran adalah 'oral tradition'. Penyampaian Quran adalah dari pembacaan. Sehingga kini ada sekolah Hafidz yg kita boleh tau sapa guru mereka hingga ke zaman Nabi Muhammad(saw).

Bro belum terangkan apa problem geng Hadith. Bro hanya menyatakan yg kami belakangkan Quran tapi bro dah salah. Kami guna hadith untuk penjelasan praktik tentang Quran.

Kalau bro dah ketepikan Hadith , bermakna bro jugak ketepikan Asbab Al-Nuzul pasal ia sama seperti hadith. Macaman Bro boleh tafsir Quran?

zamkumis Publish time 24-11-2014 09:38 AM

Rasanya modereator, topik ini tak sesuai disini, perlu dialihkan ke sub topik muslimin muslimat -> Sunni, Syiah, Khawarij, Sufi & Sebagainya

Harap dipindahkan.

kid Publish time 24-11-2014 06:17 PM

sam1528 posted on 23-11-2014 08:27 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Silap tu bro.

Quran2:170 adalah kritikan Allah terhadap geng kafir , Tafsir Ibn Kathir

Silap tu bro.
Quran2:170 adalah kritikan Allah terhadap geng kafir , Tafsir Ibn Kathir
Ayat tu warning untuk semua manusia, bukan geng kafir saja. bro baca ayat sebelum tu 2:168-169 "O mankind..."
So bro, saya, Ibnu Kathir termasuk sekali lah yang dituju dalam ayat tu (mankind). Tapi Ibnu Kathir pula kata ayat itu hanya untuk orang kafir (bukan semua mankind). :(
Ibnu Kathir tu fallible person, dia boleh buat silap. Dalam tafsir 2:170 ni dia dah nyata buat silap dengan kata itu untuk geng kafir sahaja. 2:168-169 bukti nya.


1400 years scholarship adalah koleksi ilmu tafsiran Quran , Hadith etc. Soalan yg bro belum jawab. Mana bukti yg geng hadith meninggalkan Quran? Kami gunakan Hadith sebagai penerangan praktik kepada Quran.


Buktinya kat atas tu, reading the Quran but following the others. Simple case kita bercakap pasal ayat 2:170, bro terus ikut tafsir Ibnu Kathir nak paham ayat tu. Bro tinggalkan Qur'an dan gunakan source Ibnu Kathir, kerana bro rasa ayat tu kena explain daripada "other source", betul tak?

Bukan tak boleh dengar pendapat/hadith mana-mana ulama terdahulu, tapi bukan bererti dia selalu betul. Hadith sepatutnya kena verify dengan Qur'an, bukian sebaliknya, betul ke tak?

Semoga bro dah tangkap apa maksud aku.

Oral Tradition tak boleh dipercayai? Quran adalah 'oral tradition'. Penyampaian Quran adalah dari pembacaan


Silap bro, bro confusekan "hadith" dengan Qur'an. Qur'an bukan disampaikan secara oral to oral macam hadith, tapi Qur'an itu disampaikan melalui catatan tertulis. Setiap ayat dalam Qur'an tu mesti ada minimal 2 catatan. Dalam proses pengumpulan Qur'an menjadi kitab semua ayat-ayat dikumpul dalam bentuk tulisan (kalam), itu pasal ayat pertama turun: Bacalah! (Read!), bukan Dengarlah! "God teaches by means of the pen" (96:1-4). Ada pen mesti ada tulisan.

Hadith pulak tak mesti ada catatan/tulisan, kebanyakan hanya "oral tradition" atau cerita dari mulut-ke-mulut (didengar) selama beratus tahun, macam yang bro kata tu. Sanad tu pula bergantung trust dengan personal yg meriwayatkan hadith. Tak ade manusia infallble bro. So trust mana boleh 100% dengan manusia, lain pasal kalau Nabi ada authorized kitab hadith yang tertulis. Tapi nabi tak pernah authorized kitab tertulis lain selain Quran.

So Bro dah mula nampak beza Quran dengan "hadith"?

Kalau bro dah ketepikan Hadith , bermakna bro jugak ketepikan Asbab Al-Nuzul pasal ia sama seperti hadith. Macaman Bro boleh tafsir Quran?


Allah dah bagi jawabanNya, sila baca dan fikirkan bro:

Quran 3:7: "It is He who has sent down to you, the Book; in it are verses precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation , they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding."

- True interpretation in on Allah. So Ibnu Kathir bukan pentafsir yang diiktiraf Allah, pentafsir Qur'an itu Allah sendiri.
- Tafsir (interpretation) yang unspecified di ikut oleh mereka yang hatinya ada kesesatan (nak dapatkan tafsir mengikut suka mereka), so kena hati hati dengan tafsir untuk nak puaskan nafsu hati sahaja.
- Mereka "those firm in knowledge" kata: Saya percaya dengan apa yg Allah kata tu (Allah yang bagi tafsiran ayat tu). So bukan kepada Ibnu Kathir kita kena percaya, tapi percaya terus kepada Allah! Apakah bro termasuk "Those firm in knowledge"?
- Kerana Allah dah declare Dia guru daripada Al-Quran itu. 55:1-2 The Most Merciful. Taught the Qur'an. Allah yang ajarkan Quran tu.
- "God teaches by means of the pen" (96:1-4), Allah mengajar melalui kitab yang tertulis (Qur'an), bukan dengan "other (oral) source".
- Allah akan bagi tafsiran/penerangan kepada setiap manusia bergantung kadar hati (pure and sincere), bagi yang hati tak terbuka memang tak akan paham-paham.
- So kita kena Baca (Iqra'), dan study Quran betul-betul. Selepas tu makna ayat tu akan Allah bagi kepada kita.
- Boleh baca sumber-sumber lain, tak salah, tapi kena hati-hati dan kena pelajari, ambillah yang terbaik. Yang mestinya tak boleh bertentangan dengan Quran. Tapi tafsir Ibnu Kathir kat atas tu dah bertentangan dengan Qur'an (dia kata geng kafir, Allah kata all mankind).

So itu cara macamana nak mentafsir bro, boleh bro baca Ibnu Kathir, tapi bro kena verify dengan Qur'an, dah verify baru tau Ibnu Kathir silap.

Next... Bro pula mungkin kata kalau kita belajar sendiri lepas tu salah tafsir. Takkan kita tafsir kita ikut suka-suka?
Quran 56:77-81 "It is an honorable Quran. In a protected record. None can grasp it except those pure. A revelation from the Lord of the worlds.

Memang betul lah, tak ada yang boleh paham Quran except the pure (sincere). So ini step awal, step selanjutnay agak panjang nak terangkan, so nanti kita diskusi lagi.

Sekarang ni saya nak dengar apa menurut pendapat bro yg atas tu?

Last edited by kid on 24-11-2014 06:26 PM

sam1528 Publish time 24-11-2014 09:01 PM

kid posted on 24-11-2014 06:17 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Ayat tu warning untuk semua manusia, bukan geng kafir saja. bro baca ayat sebelum tu 2:168-169 " ...

Sapa 'them' tu dalam Quran2:170?
And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?
Rujuk kepada Quran2:171
The example of those who disbelieve is like that of one who shouts at what hears nothing but calls and cries cattle or sheep - deaf, dumb and blind, so they do not understand.Ini adalah penerangan kepada ayah 170. Quran2:170 rujuk kepada sapa?

Problem Bro sekarang adalah geng Hadith ikut apa yg diajar oleh moyang kami dan mereka diajar oleh para muslim etc etc sehingga ke para sahabah Nabi Muhammad(saw). Contoh adalah tatacara solat. Sampai sekarang Bro tak jawab lagi , macamana tatacara solat ikut Quran sahaja? Adakah Bro ikut cara sesuka hati dgn tatacara solat - sujud dulu baru rukuk dan apa dibaca?

Reading the Quran and following others? Perbetulkan saya jika saya salah tentang pendapat Bro
(i) Geng Hadith baca Quran dan rujuk kepada Hadith , Asbab Al Nuzul & Seerah untuk konteks ayat2 yg dibaca (ie. tafsiran) - kaedah salah
(ii) Geng Quranist baca Quran dan tak rujuk kepada apa2 pasal perbuatan tersebut bertentangan dengan Quran (ie. Tafsir ikut kemampuan ilmu sendiri) - kaedah betul

Wooo!! Take a step back .... there is something not right with your logic.

Sekarang Bro dakwa yg tak ada sapa yang boleh faham Quran selain dari orang yang 'pure'. Adakah hanya Quranist aje yang pure pasal selama in Bro asyik dok kata geng hadith salah tapi hingga sekarang Bro tak dapat jelaskan tatacara solat ikut Quran sahaja.

Bro masih tak dapat jelaskan bagaimana geng Hadith membelakangkan Quran.

Kena ada bukti Bro ....

kid Publish time 24-11-2014 10:36 PM

Sapa 'them' tu dalam Quran2:170?
Saya dah kutipkan "them" tu dalam Quran bermakna "O mankind ..." 2:168-169
Then folowed by 2: 171 "those of who disbelieved..."
Bermakna surat 2:168-171: "Those of who disbelieved from the whole mankind!"

Takkan itu susah sangat bro?

Ibnu Kathir pulak tafsir mengikut hadith:Ibn Ishaq reported that Ibn `Abbas said that this was revealed about A GROUP OF JEWS whom Allah's Messenger called to Islam, but they refused, saying, "Rather, we shall follow what we found our forefathers following.'' So Allah revealed this Ayah (2:170) above."Sama ke "a group of Jews" dengan "Mankind"?

Tapi saya tau bro tetap tak terima, pasal bagi bro Ibnu Kathir (kononnya hadith Ibnu Ishaq, Ibnu Abbas) tu tak BOLEH SILAP.

Sampai bila-bila bro akan tetap pertahankan. Dan sampai bila-bila bro akan tetap reject firman Allah dalam ayat 2:168-171 tu berkaitan "mankind", bukan segolongan Yahudi (a group of Jews). Bro lagi takut reject tafsir Ibnu Kathir, tapi selamba je reject "mankind" ayat Allah.

Last... kenapa bro tak akan sanggup reject hadith Ibnu Kathir tu? Kerana kalau bro reject hadith tu means bro kena review balik pegangan bro akan semua hadith lain. Bro cintakan hadith, deep down inside your heart, you need to put something as an ally beside God.

Simple macam tu je bro.

Sekarang dah paham kenapa saya reject "hadith" from our forefathers?

kid Publish time 24-11-2014 11:10 PM

Reading the Quran and following others? Perbetulkan saya jika saya salah tentang pendapat Bro
(i) Geng Hadith baca Quran dan rujuk kepada Hadith , Asbab Al Nuzul & Seerah untuk konteks ayat2 yg dibaca (ie. tafsiran) - kaedah salah
(ii) Geng Quranist baca Quran dan tak rujuk kepada apa2 pasal perbuatan tersebut bertentangan dengan Quran (ie. Tafsir ikut kemampuan ilmu sendiri) - kaedah betul

Wooo!! Take a step back .... there is something not right with your logic.
(i) Kaedah apa bro? Kaedah yang bro kata tu kaedah daripada Quran ke? Ataupun kaedah yang dah turun temurun?
(ii) Tak salah rujuk mana-mana sumber, ambik yang betul dan terbaik, dan verify dengan Qur'an. Bukan ikut macam blind faith.
Kena guna akal dan fikiran sendiri bro, Allah kata yang akan selamat di dunia ni hanya orang yang guna akal!

Kalau bro rasa something not right with my logic, maybe bro patut tengok "logic" versi Allah:

1). ”This is not fabricated ‘hadith’; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, provides the details of everything, and is a guidance and mercy for those who believe” 12:111
2). ”We have made it (the Quran) easy to understand and in your own tongue (language) that you may take heed” 44:58
3). "We did not leave anything out of this book” 6:38
4). ”Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” 6:114
5). ”We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the Muslims” 16:89

So tak boleh guna akal sendiri ye bro?

12: 2 "Sesungguhnya Kami menurunkan kitab itu sebagai Quran yang dibaca dengan bahasa Arab, supaya kamu (menggunakan akal untuk) memahaminya."

38:29 "(Al-Quran ini) sebuah Kitab yang Kami turunkan kepadamu (dan umatmu wahai Muhammad), -Kitab yang banyak faedah-faedah dan manfaatnya, untuk mereka memahami dengan teliti kandungan ayat-ayatnya, dan untuk orang-orang yang berakal sempurna beringat mengambil iktibar.

So tak boleh meneliti dan menggunakan akal ye bro? Last edited by kid on 24-11-2014 11:20 PM

sam1528 Publish time 24-11-2014 11:48 PM

kid posted on 24-11-2014 10:36 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Saya dah kutipkan "them" tu dalam Quran bermakna "O mankind ..." 2:168-169
Then folowed by 2: 171 ...
Ok then , tersebut adalah apa Bro ungkapkan :
Bermakna surat 2:168-171: "Those of who disbelieved from the whole mankind!"

Takkan itu susah sangat bro?

Ibnu Kathir pulak tafsir mengikut hadith:

    Ibn Ishaq reported that Ibn `Abbas said that this was revealed about A GROUP OF JEWS whom Allah's Messenger called to Islam, but they refused, saying, "Rather, we shall follow what we found our forefathers following.'' So Allah revealed this Ayah (2:170) above."

Copy
Sama ke "a group of Jews" dengan "Mankind"?
Apa yang Bro faham tentang 'Those of who disbelieved from the whole mankind'? Adakah
(i) whole of mankind are disbelievers   ; atau
(ii) part of mankind are disbelievers

Kalau jawapan Bro adalah (ii) , tak salah tafsiran Ibn Kathir. 'Group of Jews' ini adalah disbelievers (tak kisah lah zaman mana pun) tapi mereka adalah part of mankind bukan whole of mankind. Sekarang apa problem dia? This is again imagining problems where there aren't any. Apa yang silap pada tafsiran Ibn Kathir?

Jadi muslim geng hadith tak termasuk dalam golongan 'disbelievers' pada Quran2:170 , seperti Bro klaim. You are so confused.

Saya tak kata pun yg ibn Abbas , ibn Kathir tak boleh silap. Tapi Bro dah klaim yg mereka sudah silap dan hadith tak boleh ikut. Apa justifikasi Bro?

Isu yang saya nampak adalah Bro hanya mahu tafisr Quran ikut citarasa sendiri. Sampai sekarang Bro tak dapat buktikan yg tafsiran Ibn Kathir adalah salah , muslim geng hadith membelakangkan Quran etc etc.

Geng Hadith masih menunggu :
Sampai sekarang Bro tak jawab lagi , macamana tatacara solat ikut Quran sahaja? Adakah Bro ikut cara sesuka hati dgn tatacara solat - sujud dulu baru rukuk dan apa dibaca?
Sampai sekarang saya tak paham pasal apa bro reject hadith. Nak terangkan tatacara solat dengan hanya gunakan Quran pun Bro tak mampu.
Last edited by sam1528 on 25-11-2014 12:21 AM

sam1528 Publish time 25-11-2014 12:19 AM

kid posted on 24-11-2014 11:10 PM static/image/common/back.gif
(i) Kaedah apa bro? Kaedah yang bro kata tu kaedah daripada Quran ke? Ataupun kaedah yang dah turu ...

Tak salah gun akal. Tapi nak guna akal kena ada ilmu.Cukup ke ilmu untuk tafsir Quran tanpa apa2 rujukkan.

Ok , I will use the concordance approach. Saya ulangi soalan saya :
Sampai sekarang Bro tak jawab lagi , macamana tatacara solat ikut Quran sahaja? Adakah Bro ikut cara sesuka hati dgn tatacara solat - sujud dulu baru rukuk dan apa dibaca?


kid Publish time 28-11-2014 09:55 AM

sam1528 posted on 24-11-2014 11:48 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Ok then , tersebut adalah apa Bro ungkapkan :

Apa yang Bro faham tentang 'Those of who disbelie ...

Apa yang Bro faham tentang 'Those of who disbelieved from the whole mankind'? Adakah
(i) whole of mankind are disbelievers   ; atau
(ii) part of mankind are disbelievers

Kalau jawapan Bro adalah (ii) , tak salah tafsiran Ibn Kathir. 'Group of Jews' ini adalah disbelievers (tak kisah lah zaman mana pun) tapi mereka adalah part of mankind bukan whole of mankind. Sekarang apa problem dia? This is again imagining problems where there aren't any. Apa yang silap pada tafsiran Ibn Kathir?

Jadi muslim geng hadith tak termasuk dalam golongan 'disbelievers' pada Quran2:170 , seperti Bro klaim. You are so confused.

Bro, dont twist my word. The verse is very clear, the whole mankind has been given the warning, and part of them (mankind) are disbelievers.

No matter how you wish that "mankind" and changed into into "a group of Jews", the verse is very clear and stand out, anyone can read and see the verses.

I don't deny that "a group of Jews" were disbeliever, BUT there were disbelievers among Christian and Muslim themselves, and other disbelievers form the whole mankind. But Ibnu Kathir limited the scope to a group of Jews, which is wrong.

If you still follow Ibnu Kathir tafsir then do as you wish. But for me I won't dare to reject God's word.

This is the reason I reject hadith, but you pretend you don't understand the reason I did so.

Sorry for my harsh words.

kid Publish time 28-11-2014 10:09 AM

Sampai sekarang Bro tak jawab lagi , macamana tatacara solat ikut Quran sahaja? Adakah Bro ikut cara sesuka hati dgn tatacara solat - sujud dulu baru rukuk dan apa dibaca?

Bro.. even for a clear cut case like above verse (mankind vs a group of Jews), you insist of following hadith instead of Qur'an.

So how we are going to discuss about how to pray in Quran? It will be no more than a new object of mockery for you instead.

Because you already have firm believe that how to pray is explained on hadith not Qur'an, and Quran "lack of details" in how to pray.
While you might not know that hadith do not explain all the details of how we pray today!

So how to discuss how to pray based on Quran, while you already reject the idea that Quran can explain the way we pray?

For a proof, you already rejected the way we do wudhu based on Qur'an (4 steps), you insist of following 10-12 steps based on Mahzab.

So bro, I dont have a slight trust that you will listen what Quran says about how to pray.

If you really a devoted Muslim and trust Quran is from Allah, you shall at least bring to me few verses about how to pray in Quran instead of asking me to rpovide all as if I'm the only one following Quran. Dont you follow Quran?
If yes then why dont you start by yourself, bring some verses!
I promise will bring more verses about how to pray. Otherwise this is useless topic.

Or you don't wish quoting verses from your own Quran?

sam1528 Publish time 28-11-2014 02:39 PM

kid posted on 28-11-2014 09:55 AM static/image/common/back.gif
Bro, dont twist my word. The verse is very clear, the whole mankind has been given the warning, and part of them (mankind) are disbelievers.

No matter how you wish that "mankind" and changed into into "a group of Jews", the verse is very clear and stand out, anyone can read and see the verses.

I don't deny that "a group of Jews" were disbeliever, BUT there were disbelievers among Christian and Muslim themselves, and other disbelievers form the whole mankind. But Ibnu Kathir limited the scope to a group of Jews, which is wrong.

If you still follow Ibnu Kathir tafsir then do as you wish. But for me I won't dare to reject God's word.

This is the reason I reject hadith, but you pretend you don't understand the reason I did so.

Sorry for my harsh words.


I am not twisting your words. Isn't it true that disbelievers are part of mankind? Therefore what is the issue here?

Ibn Kathir stated that the reason of this revelation is directed towards the disbelieving Jews. It is also applicable to people who disbelieved in Allah and follow what their forefathers believed in. It is the context that is important and I think you have missed this point.Since when did hadith following muslims disbelieved in Allah? It is just a strawman argument for you to claim that Hadith following muslims are disbelievers and place the hadith above the Quran.

Nobody is rejecting the words of Allah. However there is a systematic way of understanding it. How do you understand such as you need the following
(1) proficiency in Arabic
(2) know what is the incident for a particular verse to be revealed
(3) the example by Prophet Muhammad(saw) in making the Quran practical

Therefore consulting a scholar is the next best option.

I still do not see the reason for you in rejecting the hadith because you seem to miss the context of the verse

Don't worry , I am not offended

sam1528 Publish time 28-11-2014 03:23 PM

kid posted on 28-11-2014 10:09 AM static/image/common/back.gif
Bro.. even for a clear cut case like above verse (mankind vs a group of Jews), you insist of fol ...

I used the hadith to interpret the Quran. It does not mean I follow the hadith instead of Quran as alleged by you.

I say again , there is no explanation for the ritual of solat derived from the Quran alone. Show me where the Quran states of when we should prostrate and bow down (in that order) and what we should say in each position. Can you also show me how many raak'ats for each the different prayers (ie. zuhr , asr etc) from the Quran alone.

Until now you have been evading this point(s)

What do you mean that the Hadith does not teach of prayers. Can you define what is hadith? Prophet Muhammad(saw) in teaching his companions in the ritual of solat and them teaching others is already hadith.

In the issue of wudhu , where in the Quran states that the so called 12 steps of wudhu is haram?

I am still waiting for the Quranic Verses on how to perform solat etc. I forsee it is going to be a very long wait for me ....

kid Publish time 28-11-2014 11:46 PM

sam1528 posted on 28-11-2014 03:23 PM static/image/common/back.gif
I used the hadith to interpret the Quran. It does not mean I follow the hadith instead of Quran as ...
You used hadith to interpret Quran, while you forgot that hadith not only interpret but adding new rules.
Quran says 4 steps in wudhu, hadith says 10-12steps.
How does that defined as interpretation? It is addition, not interpretation.
You know bidah is prohibited, and you like to accuse other of doing so, but you forgot that you do exactly the same.

You said Qur'an do not have objection of 12 steps, yes it is not mentioned there were objection even for 100 steps, but God said in the next verse that the believer says: WE HEARD AND OBEY, then it means if we are believer we will obey 4 steps!We obey only Allah ALONE.

You cannot say you obey Allah when He commanded 4 steps and you indeed doing 12 steps?
What you are following is actually NOT the prophet doing as well, because there are 4 mazhabs and all have different version of wudhu, prophet wont do 4 version of wudhu of course, what you do actually based on Syafi'i version. And amazingly you call yourself following Quran while what you do is mile apart from what Quran commanded.

I witnessed so far, when Bukhari/Muslim hadiths mentioned or Syafi'i/Hambali/Maliki mazhab mentioned, you are happy and satisfied with them. But when Quran mentioned, you are not satisfied with it.

"And when Allah alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter shrink, and when those besides Him are mentioned, lo! they are joyful." 39:45

The above verse FIT PERFECTLY on you.






Last edited by kid on 28-11-2014 11:48 PM

sam1528 Publish time 29-11-2014 12:39 AM

kid posted on 28-11-2014 11:46 PM static/image/common/back.gif
You used hadith to interpret Quran, while you forgot that hadith not only interpret but adding new rules.
Quran says 4 steps in wudhu, hadith says 10-12steps.
How does that defined as interpretation? It is addition, not interpretation.
You know bidah is prohibited, and you like to accuse other of doing so, but you forgot that you do exactly the same.

You said Qur'an do not have objection of 12 steps, yes it is not mentioned there were objection even for 100 steps, but God said in the next verse that the believer says: WE HEARD AND OBEY, then it means if we are believer we will obey 4 steps!We obey only Allah ALONE.

You cannot say you obey Allah when He commanded 4 steps and you indeed doing 12 steps?
What you are following is actually NOT the prophet doing as well, because there are 4 mazhabs and all have different version of wudhu, prophet wont do 4 version of wudhu of course, what you do actually based on Syafi'i version. And amazingly you call yourself following Quran while what you do is mile apart from what Quran commanded.

I witnessed so far, when Bukhari/Muslim hadiths mentioned or Syafi'i/Hambali/Maliki mazhab mentioned, you are happy and satisfied with them. But when Quran mentioned, you are not satisfied with it.

"And when Allah alone is mentioned, the hearts of those who do not believe in the hereafter shrink, and when those besides Him are mentioned, lo! they are joyful." 39:45

The above verse FIT PERFECTLY on you.

So far you don't have any answers to the questions but prefer to engage in rethorics.

Lets revisit the so called 12 steps against the 4 in the case of wudhu. Again I ask you , where is it in the Quran that states of haram if one is to do more the required? Until now there is no good answer from you because hadith following muslims still follow Allah command for abolution. If a person skip the so called 4 steps but focus on the other so called 8 , then it becomes a problem. Again this demonstrates that you are seeing problems where there are none with your allegation that hadith following muslims are not satisfied with the Quran.

Now you are appealing to Quran39.45 and state that it fits hadith following muslims? However hadith following muslims believe in the hereafter. Are you now making takfir on hadith following muslims? This is really bad.

You still have not answered -
Show me where the Quran states of when we should prostrate and bow down (in that order) and what we should say in each position. Can you also show me how many raak'ats for each the different prayers (ie. zuhr , asr etc) from the Quran alone.
This is very important as solat is one of the pillars of Islam.

How do you actually establish your solat (based on the Quran alone)?

I append the analysis by Prof Jonathan AC Brown , an upcoming hadith scholar
Everybody knows controversial hadiths, you know, what about the hadith that says you know, the hadith of the fly, pushing it into your drink..and there's the hadith of the sun going beneath the Earth and prostrating before the throne of God and asking to rise again, everyone has heard these hadiths and people always talk about them and they get in debates over them over Eid dinner or whatever the Muslim equivalent of Thanksgiving dinner is. There's not one controversial hadith today that was not also controversial a thousand years ago and then Muslim scholars didn't actually identify the exact same question a thousand years ago and find some satisfactory answer to it.

Why is this important? Because what's the difference then between let's say me when I think a hadith is controversial and I don't like it and I refuse to accept it and I say, “This is nonsense, I can't accept this, I don't want this to be a part of my religion.” What's the difference between me and that scholar 1,000 years ago? It's not about something in the hadith or some critical faculty that I have that this classical Muslim scholar didn't have..we both found exactly the same problems. The issue is what we do with that understanding. That's the difference. It's how we react to it.

The big difference between the reaction that Muslims today have to controversial hadiths and the reaction that classical Muslim scholars had is the difference in our world views, the difference in what we expect from religion, how we think religion should look and smell and feel, and guess where those differences come from? They don't come from Islamic tradition. They come from the fact that as communities that live in the west or maybe came from areas that lived under western colonization or western educational systems, we've actually adopted many ideas into our own understanding of the religion that have no original existence in the Islamic tradition.
Last edited by sam1528 on 29-11-2014 01:08 AM

kid Publish time 29-11-2014 12:59 PM

sam1528 posted on 29-11-2014 12:39 AM static/image/common/back.gif
So far you don't have any answers to the questions but prefer to engage in rethorics.

Lets revi ...

"The word of your Lord is COMPLETE in truth & justice." (6:115)

Do you want to add something to the Quran that already complete?

If a person skip the so called 4 steps but focus on the other so called 8 , then it becomes a problem

No, even adding something on top of Quran which already complete and perfect is also a problem. It will become imperfect, like what Jews and Christian did, they added thing! remember?

"..We have not neglected anything in the Book .." 6:38

This is very important as solat is one of the pillars of Islam.
Of course.

How do you actually establish your solat (based on the Quran alone)?

Lets not jump too far. We will come to salat later after you understand that Quran is complete and fully detailed. How do you going to believe salat based on Quran, if you dont believe Quran is complete and fully detailed?

sam1528 Publish time 29-11-2014 06:11 PM

kid posted on 29-11-2014 12:59 PM static/image/common/back.gif
"The word of your Lord is COMPLETE in truth & justice." (6:115)

Do you want to add something to the Quran that already complete?

I just don't understand you. Say I execute the so called 12 steps of wudhu. These so called extra actions negate the wudhu? If yes , can you pinpoint such in the Quran?You have yet to answer. You are so confused about what is obligatory and what is recommendable in the steps.

The question here why can't I do more that the obligatory steps? Nothing in the Quran that states it cannot be done. All you have is appealing to the verse that the Quran is complete thus trying to imply that when we do the extra steps , we are admitting that the Quran is incomplete. You don't even recognize that the said verse (Quran5:6) , provides a guideline which is the bare minimum. This is because in the next sentence it stated that if you are in a state of janabah - purify yourself. Can you tell me according to the Quran alone , how do you purify yourself when you are in the state of janabah?

No, even adding something on top of Quran which already complete and perfect is also a problem. It will become imperfect, like what Jews and Christian did, they added thing! remember?

"..We have not neglected anything in the Book .." 6:38
If I want to be literal like you , I can ask the following :
Is there teaching in the Quran on how to construct the space shuttle since you state that the Quran is complete?

I am sure you cannot answer. Then according to your own logic , you are now admitting that the Quran in incomplete. However you have failed to realize that what the Quran provide is general ruling and concepts. Prophet Muhammad(saw) in turn expend on the General Ruling and provide details to the said concepts. Therefore to construct the space shuttle , one need to acquire knowledge first.

Lets not jump too far. We will come to salat later after you understand that Quran is complete and fully detailed. How do you going to believe salat based on Quran, if you dont believe Quran is complete and fully detailed?
LOL , if I know better , you are dragging your feet as you know that the sequential details of solat is not in the Quran. Can you now explain what does it mean in context or otherwise when it states that the Quran is complete?

kid Publish time 30-11-2014 11:47 PM

Is there teaching in the Quran on how to construct the space shuttle since you state that the Quran is complete?
Quran is not a manual book for space ship construction.

It is fully complete in regards to the religion, the way to the straight path.

You are clearly starting to mock Quran.

LOL , if I know better , you are dragging your feet as you know that the sequential details of solat is not in the Quran.

Sequentials detail that you wish? Of course Quran will not follow your wishful thinking. If you want to fins way that satisfied your wish then follow hadith. In Quran the way salat done is different than in hadith.

Can you now explain what does it mean in context or otherwise when it states that the Quran is complete?

So you are saying Quran is incomplete? Oh my God. Last edited by kid on 1-12-2014 12:13 AM

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