sam1528 Publish time 1-12-2014 02:41 PM

kid posted on 30-11-2014 11:47 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Quran is not a manual book for space ship construction.

It is fully complete in regards to the religion, the way to the straight path.

You are clearly starting to mock Quran.

Your answer is that the Quran is not a manual but a guidance for spiritual and religious fullfillment.

Then why are you treating the Quran to be a manual with your claim that the Quran contain 'how to' to perform the solah. The 'how to' or the nitty gritty detail comes from the teachings and / or physical actions of Prophet Muhammad(saw).

Where is it that I mock the Quran?

Sequentials detail that you wish? Of course Quran will not follow your wishful thinking. If you want to fins way that satisfied your wish then follow hadith. In Quran the way salat done is different than in hadith.
This is the whole issue. How is the solah done according to the Quran alone? You do not even have nor even attempt to answer such a simple question. This is evident that you cannot justify your position being a Quranist. I noticed your claim that the method of solah has been passed from Prophet Ibrahim(as) to Prophet Muhammad(saw) , your post #42 of the 'Hadith' thread. To justify such claim , you need to provide the Quranic verse that the said method was passed down from Prophet Ibrahim(as) to Prophet Muhammad(saw). If there is none , it adds to your listproblems. This is because you criticize the formal compilation of hadiths like Bukhari which is about 200 years after the passing of Prophet Muhammad(saw) but seem ok with the handing down from Prophet Ibrahim(as) to Prophet Muhammad(saw) which is more than a thousand years.

So you are saying Quran is incomplete? Oh my God.
I did not say that. I repeat what I stated :
Can you now explain what does it mean in context or otherwise when it states that the Quran is complete?
Please address the issue on hand.

Last edited by sam1528 on 1-12-2014 02:42 PM

kid Publish time 1-12-2014 05:16 PM

sam1528 posted on 1-12-2014 02:41 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Your answer is that the Quran is not a manual but a guidance for spiritual and religious fullfillm ...
Yes it is a guidance or "hudan" (2:2) "This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah"

Allah instructed us to do salat in Qur'an, whatever God instruct us to do in Quran are part of religious commandment that we have to do.
Building a space ship is not religious commandment obviously.

There are many religious aspect in Quran that already observed by the people before Muhammad, because they has been given the guidance too. So the commandment to observe salat has been done since the prophet Ibrahim.

Unlike hadith follower who think that salat is the new commandment (prophet Muhammad went to met Allah and negotiate 5 prayer times from 50 times), in fact prophet Ibrahim, Musa, Isa etc already done salat.

This is something that is hard to accept by hadith follower because they think prophet Muhammad bring a new salat rituals, while it was not.

So how to performed salat is not given in details in Qur'an, because Allah knew that people at the time of Muhammad already know how to observe salat. However He knew that salat will be distorted by the following people after Muhammad, so Allah still gave some details about salat in Qur'an.
So thus, Qur'an contains some details about salat, especially about:
- Why doing salat
- The timeframe of salat
- What to do before perform salat
- Salat sequences (stand, bow, prostate)
- What to read and what not to read.
- How to end salat
So unlike the hadith follower who belief that Quran do not explain anything about salat, they are wrong, but they follow hadith instead and don't bother searching salat in Qur'an.

While hadith follower adding things to salat, which contradict what Allah said about salat:
- Why doing salat (mostly do not have idea, they just observe salat because it is a comamndment, a must, or just mimic others)
- The time frame of salat, Quran mentioned 3 specific times, while hadith mentioned 5 times, while some hadith contradicted about this time.
- What to do before salat, they added their wudhu rituals on top of stated in Qur'an
- They asked how to stand, bow or prostate. Even a baby know how to stand, God has given us "akal" so we can think and perform standing without even thinking how to do it, but they kept asking how to do that.
- What to read, all the reading in salat today are the verses from Qur'an, from Alfatihah, Rabbana lakal hamd.., Rabbirfirly.., La ila ha illahllah all exist in Quran, so Quran is complete of the readings.
Furthermore Quran forbid some saying, and hadith follower do not know this, they keep doing the forbidden sayings.
- How to end salat, Quran told how to end salat with the word "Alhamdulillah", while hadith follower end salat by "Assalamualaikum to the left and right"

So if you say salat in Quran is different than what you usually do so, no wonder!
But you use that as an excuse to claim that Qur'an is insufficient in detailing salat. You wish that Quran explain everything that you do! While what you should do actually is go back to Quran and follow what it said.

Where is it that I mock the Quran?
This is what you said: "Is there teaching in the Quran on how to construct the space shuttle since you state that the Quran is complete?"
You clearly were implying Qur'an is incomplete, and mock Quran for not explaining how to build space shuttle.

This is the others: "LOL , if I know better , you are dragging your feet as you know that the sequential details of solat is not in the Quran. Can you now explain what does it mean in context or otherwise when it states that the Quran is complete?"
Another claim from you that Qur'an is not explaining.
You are againts 6:115.

And you use "hadith" as guidance, you contradict 2:2. This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah

So now, I have no problem whether you accept Quran as a complete kitab or not. Don't bother about it.
Last edited by kid on 1-12-2014 05:22 PM

sam1528 Publish time 1-12-2014 08:55 PM

kid posted on 1-12-2014 05:16 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Yes it is a guidance or "hudan" (2:2) "This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah"

Allah instructed us to do salat in Qur'an, whatever God instruct us to do in Quran are part of religious commandment that we have to do.
Building a space ship is not religious commandment obviously.

There are many religious aspect in Quran that already observed by the people before Muhammad, because they has been given the guidance too. So the commandment to observe salat has been done since the prophet Ibrahim.

Unlike hadith follower who think that salat is the new commandment (prophet Muhammad went to met Allah and negotiate 5 prayer times from 50 times), in fact prophet Ibrahim, Musa, Isa etc already done salat.

This is something that is hard to accept by hadith follower because they think prophet Muhammad bring a new salat rituals, while it was not.

So how to performed salat is not given in details in Qur'an, because Allah knew that people at the time of Muhammad already know how to observe salat. However He knew that salat will be distorted by the following people after Muhammad, so Allah still gave some details about salat in Qur'an.
So thus, Qur'an contains some details about salat, especially about:
- Why doing salat
- The timeframe of salat
- What to do before perform salat
- Salat sequences (stand, bow, prostate)
- What to read and what not to read.
- How to end salat
So unlike the hadith follower who belief that Quran do not explain anything about salat, they are wrong, but they follow hadith instead and don't bother searching salat in Qur'an.

While hadith follower adding things to salat, which contradict what Allah said about salat:
- Why doing salat (mostly do not have idea, they just observe salat because it is a comamndment, a must, or just mimic others)
- The time frame of salat, Quran mentioned 3 specific times, while hadith mentioned 5 times, while some hadith contradicted about this time.
- What to do before salat, they added their wudhu rituals on top of stated in Qur'an
- They asked how to stand, bow or prostate. Even a baby know how to stand, God has given us "akal" so we can think and perform standing without even thinking how to do it, but they kept asking how to do that.
- What to read, all the reading in salat today are the verses from Qur'an, from Alfatihah, Rabbana lakal hamd.., Rabbirfirly.., La ila ha illahllah all exist in Quran, so Quran is complete of the readings.
Furthermore Quran forbid some saying, and hadith follower do not know this, they keep doing the forbidden sayings.
- How to end salat, Quran told how to end salat with the word "Alhamdulillah", while hadith follower end salat by "Assalamualaikum to the left and right"

So if you say salat in Quran is different than what you usually do so, no wonder!
But you use that as an excuse to claim that Qur'an is insufficient in detailing salat. You wish that Quran explain everything that you do! While what you should do actually is go back to Quran and follow what it said.

Where is it that I mock the Quran?
This is what you said: "Is there teaching in the Quran on how to construct the space shuttle since you state that the Quran is complete?"
You clearly were implying Qur'an is incomplete, and mock Quran for not explaining how to build space shuttle.

This is the others: "LOL , if I know better , you are dragging your feet as you know that the sequential details of solat is not in the Quran. Can you now explain what does it mean in context or otherwise when it states that the Quran is complete?"
Another claim from you that Qur'an is not explaining.
You are againts 6:115.

And you use "hadith" as guidance, you contradict 2:2. This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah

So now, I have no problem whether you accept Quran as a complete kitab or not. Don't bother about it.



You are not addressing the issue but now choose to be emotional about it.

We agree that Quran is not a manual , it is a guidance. Therefore it is to be expected that the details would be taught by Prophet Muhammad(saw). Isn't the teaching of salat bt Prophet Muhammad(saw) a hadith?

You claim that the 'how to' in salat has been handed down from Prophet Ibrahim(as) to Prophet Muhammad(saw). Can you pinpoint such in the Quran? You again evaded this point.

In fact the Quran condemn the method of prayer that was present in pagan Mekkah before Allah revealed the method of prayer to Prophet Muhammad(saw) ; Quran8:35 (sahih international)
And their prayer at the House was not except whistling and handclapping. So taste the punishment for what you disbelieved.
Is this the method of prayer per your claim that was handed from Prophet Ibrahim(as) to Prophet Muhammad(saw)? Clapping and whistling ...

Your inconsistency is very glaring. You criticize Bukhari for his formal hadith compilation 200 years after the passing of Prophet Muhammad(saw) but ok with the so called handed down method of prayer from Prophet Ibrahim(as) which has a time lag of more than 1000 years. Why the inconsistency?

To be clear , we are not talking about the commandment of salat. We are talking about the 'how to' in performing of salat.

You are just giving me details of salat telling me about bowing , prostrating etc. I am not asking for such. I am asking for you to provide the Quran verses that detail out WHEN to bow or prostrate (in that order) and what to read in the different positions. Until now you are evading this point.

In addition I am also asking how many rak'aat we need to pray for each prayer - pinpoint for me the said verses in the Quran.

Can you detail the Quran verses for the 2 questions I have repeatedly asked and you repeatedly evading them?

Where is that I am mocking the Quran? In fact I am mocking you (which I shouldn't do) of your continuous evasion to provide where in the Quran to address my 2 repeated questions as above. You need to be reminded that you have been evading the questions. Why this evasion?

What is your understanding about the Quran being complete?

Please provide an objective answer with reference to the Quran.

Last edited by sam1528 on 1-12-2014 08:56 PM

edy137 Publish time 4-12-2014 11:08 AM

benda pertama yang puak sunni akan tanye... macamana nak solat ikut AQ.... dah biasa dah dalam mana2 forum pon... :P

sam1528 Publish time 4-12-2014 01:15 PM

edy137 posted on 4-12-2014 11:08 AM static/image/common/back.gif
benda pertama yang puak sunni akan tanye... macamana nak solat ikut AQ.... dah biasa dah dalam mana2 forum pon...

Dipersilakan jawab. Pasal apa dolak dalih?

Macam tak ada jawapan aje .....

kid Publish time 4-12-2014 01:17 PM

sam1528 posted on 1-12-2014 08:55 PM static/image/common/back.gif
You are not addressing the issue but now choose to be emotional about it.

We agree that ...

You are the one said Quran didn't explain how to build a space shuttle, thus you objected when I said Qur'an is complete.
Now you change your word that Qur'an is the guidance. Then if you are agree Quran is the guidance, why dont you follow the guidance?

Regarding the duty of the prophet Muhammad, his sole duty is to deliver the message.
5:99 Nothing is (incumbent) on the Messenger but to deliver (the message),..."

God is the One Who explain:
55:1-2 The Most Merciful, Taught the Quran

So that is why the prophet prohibit anyone to write other than Quran, even his own hadith:
Hadith: 'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than Quran shall erase it.'" !!!

Zayd Ibn Thabit (the Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiya (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiya liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said, "The messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his Hadith." (Reported by Ibn Hanbal)

So when when we are instructed to obey the messenger, it is actually to obey what he delivered (Qur'an) per ayat 5:99, so we must follow the Qur'an, not to obey something that collected 200 years after his death and he never authorized. In Islamic pillar there is no obeying hadith either. Tell me where in Quran that we are commanded to follow other books than Quran?

You said prophet had to explain and adding thing (in details) of the Quran's laws. However Allah said prophet never spoke on his own innitiative, he only spoke whats in Qur'an.
"Obeying the Messenger is obeying God." (4:80) - God only sent down Quran and no other books.
"and he (Muhammad) does not speak on his own initiative." (53:3) - Clearly Muhammad cannot add or modify the law of Quran.

You claim that the 'how to' in salat has been handed down from Prophet Ibrahim(as) to Prophet Muhammad(saw). Can you pinpoint such in the Quran? You again evaded this point.First It wasn't my claim, but Quran said so. You also accuse me of evading the point, you should think who is really evaded and blind of Qur'an. Quran clearly mentioned salat has been commmanded to Ibrahim and prophets after him. You should start reading Qur'an brother.

Quran surat Ibrahim 14:40 "My Lord, make me an establisher of prayer (salat), and from my descendants. Our Lord, and accept my supplication..."
14:37 "Our Lord, I have settled some of my descendants in an uncultivated valley near Your sacred House, our Lord, that they may establish prayer (salat).."

While referring to prophet Ibahim and Yakub in Quran;
21:37 "And We made them leaders guiding by Our command. And We inspired to them the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer (salat), and giving of zakah;.."

The above are Quran claim, not my claim bro.

Your inconsistency is very glaring. You criticize Bukhari for his formal hadith compilation 200 years after the passing of Prophet Muhammad(saw) but ok with the so called handed down method of prayer from Prophet Ibrahim(as) which has a time lag of more than 1000 years. Why the inconsistency?

You missed the point because you dont believe Quran explaining everything (in religious terms) including salat, SO you think that salat details is not in Qur'an. While Quran is complete about salat, so "handed down" from Ibrahim doesn't mean like the ritual is passed from mouth to mouth from generations to generations like hadith, BUT the instruction exist in Torah, Injil dan Qur'an itself. This is how God passed down the ritual of salat in writing! Though we knew that Torah and Injil has been corrupted, but Quran has sufficient details about salat.

So we believe in writing (Quran), not in hadith oral tradition, thats a big difference.

To be clear , we are not talking about the commandment of salat.

Please don't twist your words again, above clearly you argued about commandment of salat passed down since Ibrahim era.

We are talking about the 'how to' in performing of salat.

Yet you don't believe Quran explain "how to" do salat despite numerous ayat I presented, then whats the point? I have told you please continue follow "how to" salat in hadith if you really believe in it. I'm not going to argue about that.

You are just giving me details of salat telling me about bowing , prostrating etc. I am not asking for such. I am asking for you to provide the Quran verses that detail out WHEN to bow or prostrate (in that order) and what to read in the different positions. Until now you are evading this point.

Detail out? Like Bani Israel wants a detail out how to sacrifie a cow in surat Al-baqarah?
Quran told us to 'stand, bow and prostate', yet you ask what order? I have no answer for you bro, because you keep asking details like Bani Israel.
What is so hard to stand, bow and prostate?
Whats so hard to read during salat when Allah said to glorify him? Aren't all the salat reading are from Qur'an? Dont you know that?

In addition I am also asking how many rak'aat we need to pray for each prayer - pinpoint for me the said verses in the Quran.

Quran do not mentioning about raka'ah, in fact no such word exist in Qur'an.
Raka'ah is an innovation from the hadith.
Quran do not set how many times you should repeat the salat, it is up to you until you are satisfied, its between you and Allah, isn't that salat is all about? Communicate with Allah?

Where is that I am mocking the Quran? In fact I am mocking you (which I shouldn't do) of your continuous evasion to provide where in the Quran to address my 2 repeated questions as above. You need to be reminded that you have been evading the questions. Why this evasion?
This about Bani Israel who kept asking endless questions to prophet Moses until he became angry. Because Bani Israil arguing about the simple and clear commandment of God, not mocking himself. So when you asked me about details of salat, you shoudl address that to God, why God not telling you sufficient information (which your heart desire?), why God only tell simple commandment about salat?
Do you want to become those Bani Israil? Ask yourself.



sam1528 Publish time 4-12-2014 06:35 PM

kid posted on 4-12-2014 01:17 PM static/image/common/back.gif
You are the one said Quran didn't explain how to build a space shuttle, thus you objected when I said Qur'an is complete.
Now you change your word that Qur'an is the guidance. Then if you are agree Quran is the guidance, why dont you follow the guidance?

Regarding the duty of the prophet Muhammad, his sole duty is to deliver the message.
5:99 Nothing is (incumbent) on the Messenger but to deliver (the message),..."

God is the One Who explain:
55:1-2 The Most Merciful, Taught the Quran

So that is why the prophet prohibit anyone to write other than Quran, even his own hadith:
Hadith: 'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than Quran shall erase it.'" !!!

Zayd Ibn Thabit (the Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiya (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiya liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said, "The messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his Hadith." (Reported by Ibn Hanbal)

So when when we are instructed to obey the messenger, it is actually to obey what he delivered (Qur'an) per ayat 5:99, so we must follow the Qur'an, not to obey something that collected 200 years after his death and he never authorized. In Islamic pillar there is no obeying hadith either. Tell me where in Quran that we are commanded to follow other books than Quran?

You said prophet had to explain and adding thing (in details) of the Quran's laws. However Allah said prophet never spoke on his own innitiative, he only spoke whats in Qur'an.
"Obeying the Messenger is obeying God." (4:80) - God only sent down Quran and no other books.
"and he (Muhammad) does not speak on his own initiative." (53:3) - Clearly Muhammad cannot add or modify the law of Quran.


Bro ,

Truncating what I stated and argue your case does not help you in any way. I state again from my post#59 , refer to the underlined
If I want to be literal like you , I can ask the following :
Is there teaching in the Quran on how to construct the space shuttle since you state that the Quran is complete?
Again I ask , what does the term 'the Quran is complete' mean to you? You stated that it is not a manual. Then why are you treating it to be a manual looking for the steps and sequence in the 'how to' of salat? Until now you cannot provide the said verses. Can you please respond as to what do you understand by the term - the Quran is complete? Are you a literalist who has abandon the use of reason (aql) and reflection (fikr) in your approach to the Quran?

Your argument that Prophet Muhammad(saw) only duty was to deliver the Quran is already relegating the Prophet(saw) to the status of a delivery or dispatch boy. Can you reason within yourself that most of teh time , delivery of a message is not enough. The message must be explained so that it it is clear. The process of explanation can be by physical action or by example or by an analogy or by instruction etc. That is why in the Quran is stated :
Quran16:44 (sahih international)
with clear proofs and written ordinances. And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them and that they might give thought.
Quran16:64 (sahih international)
And We have not revealed to you the Book, , except for you to make clear to them that wherein they have differed and as guidance and mercy for a people who believe.
How do you make clear the message? Teach the message, of course.
Quran2:129 (sahih international)
Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves who will recite to them Your verses and teach them the Book and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
Quran3:169 (sahih international)
Certainly did Allah confer favor upon the believers when He sent among them a Messenger from themselves, reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom, although they had been before in manifest error.
How do you teach? It is none other than to explain and demonstrate , then to apply it to the circumstances in life. This teaching when passed from Prophet Muhammad(saw) companions to others is what we term in a generic sense being Hadith. So where is it that there is no requirement for hadith from the Quran? What is the teaching called then?

You again appealed to the hadith that states
"The messenger of God ordered us never to write anything of his Hadith."
We have already gone thru this. You can view the said hadith : Sunan Abu Dawud (kitab Al Ilm) bk25 no3640. However if you care to read no3639 , it stated that prophet Muhammad(saw) allowed a person to record what he stated.

Scholars have the following conclusion :
Scholars have favored different views on this matter and some have opted for multiple reasons to explain the prohibition and the subsequent allowance by the Prophet (peace be upon him). Prof Haleem points out that there is evidence to suggest that the Prophet (peace be upon him) only allowed his (peace be upon him) companions - those who could write proficiently - to write hadiths once the Quran had been fully recorded.
(M. A. S. Abdel Haleem, "Qur'an and hadith," in Timothy Winter (Editor), The Cambridge Companion to Classical Islamic Theology, 1st Edition, 2008, Cambridge University Press, p. 23.)

Prof. Azami also suggests that the initial prohibition of the writing of hadith was most probably directed towards the writing of Qur'anic and non-Qur'anic material on the same sheet as that had the potential of creating misunderstandings. Another possible reason submitted by him is that the Prophet (peace be upon him) disapproved the writing of hadith in the early days because it was feared people may neglect the Quran at a time when all attention was needed to be directed towards the Quran and its preservation. But later, when such a danger had ceased, the previous prohibition was lifted. (M. M. Azami, Studies In early Hadith Literature: With A Critical Edition Of Some Early Texts, 2000, Islamic Book Trust: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, pp. 23-24.)

I have yet to see you referencing to any scholar for your argument. Yours is just your own interpretation.



First It wasn't my claim, but Quran said so. You also accuse me of evading the point, you should think who is really evaded and blind of Qur'an. Quran clearly mentioned salat has been commmanded to Ibrahim and prophets after him. You should start reading Qur'an brother.

Quran surat Ibrahim 14:40 "My Lord, make me an establisher of prayer (salat), and from my descendants. Our Lord, and accept my supplication..."
14:37 "Our Lord, I have settled some of my descendants in an uncultivated valley near Your sacred House, our Lord, that they may establish prayer (salat).."

While referring to prophet Ibahim and Yakub in Quran;
21:37 "And We made them leaders guiding by Our command. And We inspired to them the doing of good deeds, establishment of prayer (salat), and giving of zakah;.."

The above are Quran claim, not my claim bro.
I just don't understand you. You seem to misunderstand everything and anything. Read carefully what I asked. I state again from my post #63
You claim that the 'how to' in salat has been handed down from Prophet Ibrahim(as) to Prophet Muhammad(saw). Can you pinpoint such in the Quran?
You are not addressing my question. I am asking for you to provide the Quranic verse that states of the method of prayer that was passed down from Prophet Ibrahim(as) to Prophet Muhammad(saw).

What you have given are verses that instruct to establish salat not the method of salat. There is a huge difference of what I asked and what you answered. Either you have misunderstood my question or you actually do not have any reasonable answer.



You missed the point because you dont believe Quran explaining everything (in religious terms) including salat, SO you think that salat details is not in Qur'an. While Quran is complete about salat, so "handed down" from Ibrahim doesn't mean like the ritual is passed from mouth to mouth from generations to generations like hadith, BUT the instruction exist in Torah, Injil dan Qur'an itself. This is how God passed down the ritual of salat in writing! Though we knew that Torah and Injil has been corrupted, but Quran has sufficient details about salat.

So we believe in writing (Quran), not in hadith oral tradition, thats a big difference
That is why I have been asking you. What do understand when you state that 'the Quran is complete'? No answers till now.

You should bear in mind that the Torah came after Prophet Ibrahim(as). How do you know that the 'how to' of salat done by Prophet Ibrahim(as) was captured in the Torah revealed to Prophet Moosa(as) - ritual for ritual , sequence for sequence , actions for actions for the salat? After the passing of Prophet Ibrahim(as) , how was the 'how to' in salat performed by the people who embraced his teaching but have never met him? It is obvious by learning from the people who learned from him. Isn't such hadith?

Your answer does not make sense as the Torah , much less the Injeel and Quran came after Prophet Ibrahim(as). However you claim the same instruction of 'how to salat' is contained in the Torah , Injeel and Quran as how it was revealed to Prophet Ibrahim(as). Ok then , pinpoint the pertinent verses for me in the Quran.

Well , the Quran is an oral tradition , recited by Prophet Muhammad(saw). He did not write it but his companions wrote it. Going by your logic of rejecting oral tradition , you should reject the Quran.



Please don't twist your words again, above clearly you argued about commandment of salat passed down since Ibrahim era.
See above my statement from my post#63. Are you having comprehension problems? Otherwise my perception is that you are trying to evade the issue.



Yet you don't believe Quran explain "how to" do salat despite numerous ayat I presented, then whats the point? I have told you please continue follow "how to" salat in hadith if you really believe in it. I'm not going to argue about that.
So far none of the Quranic verse you provided explain the 'how to'. To again remind you. The context of 'How to' is to provide the Quranic verses that state of WHEN we should prostrate and bow (the order) etc and what we should say in each position. You are not going to argue about it is because you don't have any Quranic reference to argue with.



Detail out? Like Bani Israel wants a detail out how to sacrifie a cow in surat Al-baqarah?
Quran told us to 'stand, bow and prostate', yet you ask what order? I have no answer for you bro, because you keep asking details like Bani Israel.
What is so hard to stand, bow and prostate?
Whats so hard to read during salat when Allah said to glorify him? Aren't all the salat reading are from Qur'an? Dont you know that?
That means one day you salat by doing the prostration first then the rukuk then sit. Other days , you sit first then rukuk than prostrate. When you feel like it , you recite the Fatiha , otherwise you just recite whatever comes to mind.

Is that how Quranists like you perform the salat? Then there is no religious discipline in what you are doing. This is like a blind person trying to describe an elephant.



Quran do not mentioning about raka'ah, in fact no such word exist in Qur'an.
Raka'ah is an innovation from the hadith.
Quran do not set how many times you should repeat the salat, it is up to you until you are satisfied, its between you and Allah, isn't that salat is all about? Communicate with Allah?
Then how is your salat performed? Stand still , prostrate then bow and if you feel satisfied that you have communicated with Allah , just walk off. Then why do you even bother to pray in a congregation?



This about Bani Israel who kept asking endless questions to prophet Moses until he became angry. Because Bani Israil arguing about the simple and clear commandment of God, not mocking himself. So when you asked me about details of salat, you shoudl address that to God, why God not telling you sufficient information (which your heart desire?), why God only tell simple commandment about salat?
Do you want to become those Bani Israil? Ask yourself.

LOL , if I know better , you actually don't have any answers. Am I right? Bani Israel was asking Prophet Moosa(as) details because they didn't want to do what was asked. I am asking question for clarification from you because of your position is untenable.

You claim that the 'how to' in salat is in the Quran. Prove it. Unless the way you salat is very different from what we mainstream are doing. Is that the case?

kid Publish time 5-12-2014 09:58 AM

sam1528 posted on 4-12-2014 06:35 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Bro ,

Truncating what I stated and argue your case does not help you in any way. I state again...
Again I ask , what does the term 'the Quran is complete' mean to you?


Sorry Bro ... you keep asking the same question again and again, what is so hard to you to understand my simple argument?
I stated I believe Quran is complete. Complete means complete and I meant what I said bro.

Your argument that Prophet Muhammad(saw) only duty was to deliver the Quran is already relegating the Prophet(saw) to the status of a delivery or dispatch boy. Can you reason within yourself that most of teh time , delivery of a message is not enough.


Yes thats your argument then, but my argument that the sole duty of messenger is to convey the message (5:99) and to explain is on Allah (55:1-2)

Before hadith emerged and fully followed it could be about 300-600 years after prophet death, so during this entire time, how do people know the so called "detail" or "teaching" or "explanantion" of the Quran because prophet already passed away and no hadith book left?? Obviously during this time people follow ony Quran and nothing else. It has been proven when Muslim follow Quran alone they excelled, this era is known as Islamic golden era. After hadith creeped into Islam then it started to spiral downward, this is because people followed non-Quranic books.

I know many scholars twisted the word "wisdom" to mean the 'hadith', but this has been rejected by Quran itself which mentioning that no other hadith to follow except Quran itself. And prophet Muhammad prohibited from adding or modifying the teaching. I already presented the ayats for this and please do not keep asking which ayat again.

So what the meaning of the Muhammad "teaching the books" is very clear, it is the teaching of the Quran itself WITHOUT any addition or modification!

Yes scholars claimed that Muhammad created or leave another books called "hadith". This is a blasphemy to God and to the prophet himself.

I have yet to see you referencing to any scholar for your argument. Yours is just your own interpretation.


Does Quran is not sufficient for you brother?

You are not addressing my question. I am asking for you to provide the Quranic verse that states ofthe method of prayer that was passed down from Prophet Ibrahim(as) to Prophet Muhammad(saw).


You didn't read my reply carefully. What was passed down only the commandment of salat, not the details of salat itself. As the details of salat is mentuioned in Quran (as well as Torah and Injil). Please read my reply carefully again.

What you have given are verses that instruct to establish salat not the method of salat. There is a huge difference of what I asked and what you answered. Either you have misunderstood my question or you actually do not have any reasonable answer.


Few verses about the method or how to do salat already presented in earlier post to you, but you DONT even bother to comment. Yes you keep asking the details of salat, as if the ayat was non exist or nonsense. So Why I should keep presenting verses related to salat if you dont even care and regard them as nonsense? Look at the earlier post if you will.

Well , the Quran is an oral tradition , recited by Prophet Muhammad(saw). He did not write it but his companions wrote it. Going by your logic of rejecting oral tradition , you should reject the Quran.


No, at the beginning Muhammad might be illiterate, but the FIRST ayat is "IQRA'" or READ, prophet knows at that time he MUST able to read and he learnt how to write too. When he died he left the complete Quran which was verified and written by himself and compared with other scribers too so to make no mistake. Hadith spreading false stories that Muhammad was illiterate until his death.
Then if it true, how come Muhammad do not follow FIRST commandment IQRA'? It is impossible.

Second he was a merchant, merchant at that time using Arabic letter as number (known as Gramatical), like Romans who use aplhabet letter as number (not 1,2,3,4,5 etc), so Muhammad knew the Arabic alphabets already!

Ask your logic, does Muhammad really illiterate until his death?

So far none of the Quranic verse you provided explain the 'how to' (salat)


Because you are blind or pretend of that, then I have no more to say.
IF you are sincere, look at earlier post, I already posted some verses about salat in Qur'an and comparing the difference with hadith, yet you had no comment and suddenly you said 'none of Quranic verses' presented. How to move forward even the introduction was already rejected by you?

Yes you rejected because Quran criticized hadith which is a big no no to you.

Then how is your salat performed? Stand still , prostrate then bow and if you feel satisfied that you have communicated with Allah , just walk off. Then why do you even bother to pray in a congregation?


Thats a weird question! When Allah said 'stand, bow and prostate' you don't just change it to 'prostate, bow and stand', or will you?
Then claim that Allah do not detailed the sequence? Do you think Quran is just a vain sayings?

"O mankind! There has come to you an instruction from your Lord (Quran), a cure for whatever (disease) is in your hearts, a guidance and a blessing for the true believers."


Last edited by kid on 5-12-2014 10:12 AM

sam1528 Publish time 5-12-2014 03:42 PM

kid posted on 5-12-2014 09:58 AM static/image/common/back.gif
Sorry Bro ... you keep asking the same question again and again, what is so hard to you to understand my simple argument?
I stated I believe Quran is complete. Complete means complete and I meant what I said bro.
I asked again and again is because I do not get an objective answer from you. 'Complete' is subjective. It means different things to different people. What is your understanding of 'The Quran is Complete'? Some might ask , can we construct a space shuttle using it. The answer is no. Therefore to them the Quran is not complete.



Yes thats your argument then, but my argument that the sole duty of messenger is to convey the message (5:99) and to explain is on Allah (55:1-2)

Before hadith emerged and fully followed it could be about 300-600 years after prophet death, so during this entire time, how do people know the so called "detail" or "teaching" or "explanantion" of the Quran because prophet already passed away and no hadith book left?? Obviously during this time people follow ony Quran and nothing else. It has been proven when Muslim follow Quran alone they excelled, this era is known as Islamic golden era. After hadith creeped into Islam then it started to spiral downward, this is because people followed non-Quranic books.

I know many scholars twisted the word "wisdom" to mean the 'hadith', but this has been rejected by Quran itself which mentioning that no other hadith to follow except Quran itself. And prophet Muhammad prohibited from adding or modifying the teaching. I already presented the ayats for this and please do not keep asking which ayat again.

So what the meaning of the Muhammad "teaching the books" is very clear, it is the teaching of the Quran itself WITHOUT any addition or modification!

Yes scholars claimed that Muhammad created or leave another books called "hadith". This is a blasphemy to God and to the prophet himself.
Therefore your argument is to selectively take some Quran verses and conveniently leave out others. How come you are not taking the verses in its total scope of context? What about the verses that stated explicitly to teach the message? Teaching is to impart knowledge or skills and it can be done in lots of ways and one of it is to instruct and make the students practice the instruction.

Can you explain just how Allah teach? To us , people of sunnah - how Allah teach is by revelation to Prophet Muhammad(saw) who in turn teach the ummah. You get your teaching directly from Allah via revelation?

Now you argue that hadith emerged 600-700 years after the passing of Prophet Muhammad(saw). This again reflects your understanding or nonunderstanding of what is hadith. Are you talking about the hadith compendium or the teaching of Prophet Muhammad(saw)?

Till now people still follow the Quran but the details are expanded in the form of hadith. The islamic civilization went south is because they no longer hold to the Quran and the teachings of Prophet Muhammad(saw). As an example , if you go to the museum in Turkey , you can see the clothes worn by of the Caliphs of the now defunct Ottoman Empire. At its height of power , the clothing was very simple but as time progress you would notice the adornment of silk and then gold. There is no hadith that state that a man can adorn silk or / and gold. You are arguing blind.

No reputable scholar I know of twisted what is meant by 'hadith'. I already asked you the question what is your understanding of 'hadith' based on the Quran. Until now , you evaded the question. Why is this so? I already provided the meaning of 'hadith' according to the Quran ; post#8 , thread : hadith thread. As far as I know , one person tried to change the Quran to suit himself - Rashad Khalifa , a quranist.

Hadith does not mean Prophet Muhammad(saw) modified the Quran. This is just your interpolation. Hadith does not even mean book. You are so confused.



Does Quran is not sufficient for you brother?
Of course it is. However there are issues in the Quran that needs to be expanded. It doesn't mean the Quran is not sufficient. It provides a concept. However to make the concept practical we need to look into the sunnah.

Are you saying that Prophet Muhammad(saw) did not live according to the Quran?



You didn't read my reply carefully. What was passed down only the commandment of salat, not the details of salat itself. As the details of salat is mentuioned in Quran (as well as Torah and Injil). Please read my reply carefully again.

Your post#44 , thread : hadithSoalan tu (cara salat) mungkin banyak ditanyakan kepada Nabi Muhammad juga, dan Nabi Muhammad tak buat cara salat baru. Cara salat tu dah ada sejak zaman nabi Ibrahim. So nabi Muhammad hanya teruskan salat seperti nabi Ibrahim buat.
So pada masa tu, salat bukan sesuatu suruhan baru, tapi dah sedia ada.
You claim that the 'how to' of salat has been handed down from Prophet Ibrahim(as) to Prophet Muhammad(saw). You forgot about your claim?

You have 2 problems now
(1) your inconsistency of throwing out hadith but accept what was handed down with a timespan of more than 1000 years with no support document but just a passed down oral tradition or by physical instruction
(2) You need to show where in the Quran that detail the 'how to' of salat to be identical of what was practiced by Prophet Ibrahim(as) and Prophet Muhammad(saw) ..... which you would never be able to do.



Few verses about the method or how to do salat already presented in earlier post to you, but you DONT even bother to comment. Yes you keep asking the details of salat, as if the ayat was non exist or nonsense. So Why I should keep presenting verses related to salat if you dont even care and regard them as nonsense? Look at the earlier post if you will.

I say again , nothing has been provided. The verses you and most Quranists refer to are Quran22:26 (sahih international)
And , when We designated for Abraham the site of the House, , "Do not associate anything with Me and purify My House for those who perform Tawaf and those who stand and those who bow and prostrate.
And Quran48:29 (sahih international)
Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating , seeking bounty from Allah and pleasure. ......
You need to read carefully the said verses. It states of bowing and prostrating NOT bowing then prostrate.
Definition of 'and' :
—used to join words or groups of words

: added to : plus

—used to describe an action that is repeated or that occurs for a long time

Definition of 'then'
: at that time : at the time mentioned

—used to indicate what happened or happens next

—used to indicate what should be done next

If you read the 2 said verses in context , it is describing the positions of the people in the various stages or state of salat. It does not tell you the 'how to' in salat. You are again projecting your interpolation to the verses.



No, at the beginning Muhammad might be illiterate, but the FIRST ayat is "IQRA'" or READ, prophet knows at that time he MUST able to read and he learnt how to write too. When he died he left the complete Quran which was verified and written by himself and compared with other scribers too so to make no mistake. Hadith spreading false stories that Muhammad was illiterate until his death.
Then if it true, how come Muhammad do not follow FIRST commandment IQRA'? It is impossible.

Second he was a merchant, merchant at that time using Arabic letter as number (known as Gramatical), like Romans who use aplhabet letter as number (not 1,2,3,4,5 etc), so Muhammad knew the Arabic alphabets already!

Ask your logic, does Muhammad really illiterate until his death?
IQRA can also mean recite. It is the context that is important. In this case recite fits the context. Can you provide the proof that Prophet Muhammad(saw) himself wrote down the Quran? I though you have abandon all forms of historical text , which we generally term being hadith. A merchant at that time can also be illiterate. Business was done via barter trade or payment with silver or gold coins. There is no number to the coins like 5 or 10 or 20. The person pay by giving a number of coins. Being illiterate did not put a person in any disadvantage at that time.

Whether he was literate at the time of death does not in any way support your argument. This is because there were scribes writing down what Prophet Muhammad(saw) recited and it was checked and rechecked with recitation by himself.



Because you are blind or pretend of that, then I have no more to say.
IF you are sincere, look at earlier post, I already posted some verses about salat in Qur'an and comparing the difference with hadith, yet you had no comment and suddenly you said 'none of Quranic verses' presented. How to move forward even the introduction was already rejected by you?

Yes you rejected because Quran criticized hadith which is a big no no to you.
You have no more to say or you have come to the end of your wits? Until now you cannot provide any Quranic verses on the 'how to' of salat. The verses you provided do not in any way state the 'how to' but just the different states or positions of salat. You misused and abused the conjunction 'and' interpolating it to mean successive action (ie. 'then'). Why are you doing this?

Can you now show me where the Quran criticize the hadith? This again revolve around the point of what is the definition of hadith according to the Quran. You cannot and have been evading providing the definition but keep on arguing as if nothing happened. Nobody does this unless you have something to hide. You are not even willing to establish any baseline of definition.



Thats a weird question! When Allah said 'stand, bow and prostate' you don't just change it to 'prostate, bow and stand', or will you?
Then claim that Allah do not detailed the sequence? Do you think Quran is just a vain sayings?

"O mankind! There has come to you an instruction from your Lord (Quran), a cure for whatever (disease) is in your hearts, a guidance and a blessing for the true believers."
Isn't 'stand , bow and prostrate' same as 'prostrate , bow and stand'. The 2 phrases describes the different positions of salat. I stated as follows in my post#67
That means one day you salat by doing the prostration first then the rukuk then sit. Other days , you sit first then rukuk than prostrate. When you feel like it , you recite the Fatiha , otherwise you just recite whatever comes to mind.
Where is the sequence using the conjunction 'and'? To describe a sequence it has to be stand then bow then prostrate. You are conflating 'and' to also be 'then'. Why is this so? Therefore the verses you appealed to does not in any way describe the sequence or 'how to' of salat.

Again I ask - where is the Quranic verses detailing the sequence or 'how to' of salat?

Who do we know changed the Quran to fit his whims and facies? Rashad Khalifa - a Quranist
Who between us conflate meanings thus interpolate the Quran to suit their whims and fancies - you (Bro Kid) - a Quranist

Evidence is stacking up against you , a quranist , who has distorted the teachings of the Quran.

Last edited by sam1528 on 5-12-2014 03:44 PM

kid Publish time 7-12-2014 08:18 PM

sam1528 posted on 5-12-2014 03:42 PM static/image/common/back.gif
I asked again and again is because I do not get an objective answer from you. 'Complete' is subjecti ...
Complete is subjective? Yes, but for me, my answer is very clear from the beginning. Quran is complete and fully detailed.
If you dont think it is complete, then its your view, not mine.

Therefore your argument is to selectively take some Quran verses and conveniently leave out others. How come you are not taking the verses in its total scope of context? What about the verses that stated explicitly to teach the message? Teaching is to impart knowledge or skills and it can be done in lots of ways and one of it is to instruct and make the students practice the instruction.



I already told you that, there is no verses in Quran saying that prophet Muhammad leaving another book called hadith, then clearly prophet Muhammad sole duty is to deliver the message only, I also gave the ayat. Then the word 'wisdom' has been twsited by scholar to mean it is hadith or Muhammad teach the Quran as you want to interpret it. Its up to you brother to interpret, if you want to interpret Quran is incomplete and then it is yours.

Can you explain just how Allah teach? To us , people of sunnah - how Allah teach is by revelation to Prophet Muhammad(saw) who in turn teach the ummah. You get your teaching directly from Allah via revelation?



This shows the lack of Quranic knowledge you have, there are numerous verses in Quran which telling about how God teaching human, this is a sample of the verse of 'how God send us the heavy message':

73:1-5
O you who have wrapped up in your garments!
Rise to pray in the night except a little.
Half of it, or lessen it a little,
Or add to it, and recite the Quran as it ought to be recited.
For we shall charge thee with a word of weight.

Now you know how God send the word of weight (message) to a man. It is NOT from a teaching of another man or another book but from God Himself direct to you!

Before you says the above verse meant for the messenger, then read 73:15. It is clearly for the people (whom they have been sent a messenger).

But then you will deny the above verses (as usual) and go back to seek another human teaching and hope you'll find hidayah, or read another book and hope you get the 'message", I may say it is a wishful thinking! While God said in above verses clearly that you probably will get the message from God after you pray and read Quran only!

So if you wish, seek teaching from another human or ustads/ulama whatever you call them (which mostly you never met becaus ethey lived hundred years before you), and read their books and follow them (hadith and mazhabs) ... then leave Quran and miss the chance or the privilige of receiving the message directly from God Himself (73:5)

Your love to hadith books is so great that you will deny 73:5 and seek message from other human or so called "prophet's hadith".

I think I dont want to comment further your other reply as clearly we are not on the same path, it is wasting of time brother.

I'm not trying to push my interpretation, because later on you will say I interpret Quran on my own, so just READ AND CONCLUDE BY YOURSELVES the above verses 73:1-5.
Last edited by kid on 7-12-2014 08:29 PM

sam1528 Publish time 7-12-2014 10:24 PM

kid posted on 7-12-2014 08:18 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Complete is subjective? Yes, but for me, my answer is very clear from the beginning. Quran is complete and fully detailed.
If you dont think it is complete, then its your view, not mine.

I am asking you again. Complete in what sense? Why are you evading this question? Since you are so scared to answer , I will answer first. The Quran is complete as it is Allah telling us or specified everything we need to know concerning who Allah is , why Allah created us and what Allah expects from us to achieve salvation. Therefore we cannot view hadith to be another competitor to the Quran but rather a secondary source that affirm and expand on the Quran. We also need to reference the Al Nuzul. Therefore the context of the Quran and its message can be understood clearly.

Nobody has ever stated nor advocate for the hadith to replace the Quran except Quranist like yourself which you guys delude yourselves into thinking that only Quranist are right. This is just strawman.

Again I am asking you. What do you mean by completeness of Quran? The followup is the question of how do you salat using the Quran only? So far nothing from you except evasion and more evasion.



I already told you that, there is no verses in Quran saying that prophet Muhammad leaving another book called hadith, then clearly prophet Muhammad sole duty is to deliver the message only, I also gave the ayat. Then the word 'wisdom' has been twsited by scholar to mean it is hadith or Muhammad teach the Quran as you want to interpret it. Its up to you brother to interpret, if you want to interpret Quran is incomplete and then it is yours.

Wow!! It has been more that 5 times I've asked you on what is the Quran definition of hadith. So far all I get is evasion from you. In addition , you keep on insisting that hadith is a book that somehow has replaced the Quran. Why are you arguing on strawman? I provide again the various meanings of hadith in the Quran :
The noun “hadith” occurs in the Qur’an twenty three times (4.42, 4.78, 4.87, 4.140, 6.68, 7.185, 12.111, 18.6, 20.9, 31.6, 33.53, 39.23, 45.6, 51.24, 52.34, 53.59, 56.81, 66.3, 68.44, 77.50, 79.15, 85.17, 88.1). Its plural form “ahadith” is found five times (12.6, 12.21, 12.101, 23.44, 34.19). In these twenty eight verses, the term broadly means “narrative,” “story,” “speech,” or “news,” which may or may not be religious. For instance, God describes the Qur’an as “the best of hadith” (39.23), refers to the story of Moses as the “hadith of Moses” (20.9), and says about nations that He destroyed for rejecting the messengers He sent to them “We have made them ahadith” (23.44). Other variations of this term occur in another eight Qur’anic verses (2.76, 18.70, 20.113, 21.2, 26.5, 65.1, 93.11, 99.4).

Of the thirty six occurrences of the term “hadith” only one is linked to something specific to Prophet Muhammad. This is verse 93.11 where the Prophet is commanded by God to speak about His favor to him, i.e. making him a Prophet: “As for the favor of your Lord, haddith (speak about).” But even in this solitary instance, the verb “haddith” is used in its generic meaning. Indeed, the verb is used in another verse to refer to the speech of disbelievers (2.76).

But the term “hadith” has acquired in Islamic literature the very specific meaning of reports about what the Prophet said, did, approved, and disapproved of, explicitly or implicitly. Indeed, hadith is considered as the main source of the “Sunna” or “customary behavior” of the Prophet. The other source is the “sira” or “biography” of the Prophet

Where do you get the idea that hadith according to the Quran is another book that compete with it? You have been repeating this argument over and over but so far no source provided. Therefore it is just another empty and imaginary argument from you. Now you are saying that the word 'wisdom' has been twisted by scholars to mean hadith. Can you point out which scholar (if any) did that?

You are wrong again. The duty of Prophet Muhammad(saw) and any other messenger is to deliver the message and also teach it , my post#67 referencing to Quran2:129 and Quran3:169. You conveniently forgot about the said 2 verses? Issit that you are following certain verses and discarding certain verses of the Quran to fit the worldview of a Quranist? Then it is you , a Quranist that has distorted the Quran.

Teaching is via imparting instruction and know how in which the part process is by saying or doing it as an example. This in turn was being taught to others by whom Prophet Muhammad(saw) taught. This is what we generically term being hadith. So where is it that the hadith compete with the Quran?



This shows the lack of Quranic knowledge you have, there are numerous verses in Quran which telling about how God teaching human, this is a sample of the verse of 'how God send us the heavy message':

73:1-5
O you who have wrapped up in your garments!
Rise to pray in the night except a little.
Half of it, or lessen it a little,
Or add to it, and recite the Quran as it ought to be recited.
For we shall charge thee with a word of weight.

Now you know how God send the word of weight (message) to a man. It is NOT from a teaching of another man or another book but from God Himself direct to you!

Before you says the above verse meant for the messenger, then read 73:15. It is clearly for the people (whom they have been sent a messenger).

But then you will deny the above verses (as usual) and go back to seek another human teaching and hope you'll find hidayah, or read another book and hope you get the 'message", I may say it is a wishful thinking! While God said in above verses clearly that you probably will get the message from God after you pray and read Quran only!

So if you wish, seek teaching from another human or ustads/ulama whatever you call them (which mostly you never met becaus ethey lived hundred years before you), and read their books and follow them (hadith and mazhabs) ... then leave Quran and miss the chance or the privilige of receiving the message directly from God Himself (73:5)

Your love to hadith books is so great that you will deny 73:5 and seek message from other human or so called "prophet's hadith".

I think I dont want to comment further your other reply as clearly we are not on the same path, it is wasting of time brother.

I'm not trying to push my interpretation, because later on you will say I interpret Quran on my own, so just READ AND CONCLUDE BY YOURSELVES the above verses 73:1-5.
Do you know that you have contradicted yourself? Refer to the sentence I hilited in green and in italics. You admit that it is for the people thru a messenger. Therefore it is the duty of the messenger to deliver the message and also teach it. You are so confused.

However you are now claiming that Prophet Muhammad(saw) just recited the Quran and then told his companions :
'ok guys , thats it ..... message given to you .... off you go and try to understand the said messages by yourself .... I am just a delivery boy'
Just take a step back and reflect on how absurd your argument has become.

History does not even support you. That is why Prophet Muhammad(saw) became a leader and a teacher. It all has to do with leading and teaching the muslims in the way of the Quran. Then why should Prophet Muhammad(saw) became the leader of the first muslim state?

LOL , I really don't know where you get the ridiculous idea that people of sunnah has completely neglected the Quran. This is just a strawman argument by Quranist to cover up the deficiency of their ideas. They just lie to themselves and they are not even brave enough to answer very basic questions.

I repeat my question again. Where is it in the Quran that tells you of the 'how to' in salat? No answers or you are just too scared to provide one or there are no answers and you are too scared to provide one.

How do you interpret the Quran? You don't know arabic nor the historical background of the said verses. You even misunderstood 'and' to be 'then'. How do you expect me to acknowledge that your interpretation is the right one? I rely on the scholars. However you claim that all scholars are wrong as they have a hidden agenda to twist the Quran. The only so called 'scholar' to do that was Rashad Khalifa - a Quranist. You are not in good company Bro ....

Last edited by sam1528 on 7-12-2014 10:32 PM

mashimaru83 Publish time 7-12-2014 10:35 PM

kid posted on 7-12-2014 08:18 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Complete is subjective? Yes, but for me, my answer is very clear from the beginning. Quran is comp ...

I think you are missing the whole point. It's not the 'book' that made up the hadith. It's the teaching of prophet Muhammad s.a.w. that made up the 'hadith'. Even before the book exist, the hadith was already there. People memorized Prophet's actions/conducts/etc and transfered the knowledge through oral, and later on people put them in books.

You are centralizing your argument with 'Hadith has to be a book', and you are looking for the 'Hadith book' related verse in Al-Quran and argue your case with that. That is purely wrong. Hadith generally is the teaching of prophet Muhammad s.a.w.

Al-Quran 3:31 (Sahih International)
Say, , "If you should love Allah , then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful."
Above verse clearly stated that if we love Allah, then follow Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. To follow Prophet s.a.w. is to follow the revelation (Al-Quran), his conducts/actions/etc. The verse doesn't say that we have to follow Al-Quran, one and only. So, there is nothing wrong for people to follow Prophet's actions/conducts/etc which can be found in Hadith. So you cannot just simply dismiss Hadith, that sounds unreasonable.


kid Publish time 9-12-2014 02:55 PM

Ok so both of you insist that Quran alone is not complete, you have to follow other source which is "hadith" to explain to you the details.

I presented numerous proof from Qur'an itself that saying the only hadith to follow is Quran and not to follow other sources (either books, teaching, traditions or sayings), but then you denied that and tell me that prophet Muhammad leaving his own "hadith". Which you can't prove to me, none of Quran verses saying that prophet leaving another teaching called hadith. But we have to follow him (Muhammad), of course to follow Qur'an which came through him! What are other teaching sent down to him except Quran? None brothers, none.

The only ahsanal hadith is Quran itself, as stated by Qur'an.
There are proof in Quran clearly stated "NOT to follow other hadith other than this Qur'an", but you both skipped that verse.

If you study Quran carefully you will know it. I bet you never study Quran from cover to cover, but reading Arabic Quran perhaps yes, but study?
And you will find so many "hadith" contradicts the Qur'an, so if you follow "hadith", how come you said you follow Qur'an but practicing something else?


Isn't this the grand strategy of Satan to duped you to believe something other than God's commands? Do you forget that Satan will do their best mislead all people? Haven't you got the warning?

Do you forgot that our forefather Adam duped by Satan? Satan didn't ask Adam to reject or object God's command, Satan persuaded Adam to believe in something else!

2:36 But the devil duped them, and caused their eviction therefrom. We said, "Go down as enemies of one another. On Earth shall be your habitation and provision for awhile."

God told us that Satan is our greatest enemy to the end of time, but you take them lightly. You just follow other unreliable teachings and felt okay. Remember your fate (as death or alive, paradise or hell) depend on YOUR CHOICE and ACTION in this world.

So if you put your fate on some other's sayings (traditions, ulama, ustadz, even Bukhari, Muslim etc) which all of them are FALLIBLE, means you have put your fate on a BIG RISK!

If you put your fate with Allah alone, trust His words alone, you are holding to a rope that never fail.

2:256 And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

Quran is the firm handhold that will never break, never!

But you choose another fallible sources instead, which surely will break someday.

So we have come to the conclusion, you believe hadith is needed aside Qur'an and will stay using hadith, and then let me also follow what I believe... Qur'an alone.

Peace brothers. Last edited by kid on 9-12-2014 03:00 PM

sam1528 Publish time 9-12-2014 06:22 PM

kid posted on 9-12-2014 02:55 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Ok so both of you insist that Quran alone is not complete, you have to follow other source which is "hadith" to explain to you the details.

I presented numerous proof from Qur'an itself that saying the only hadith to follow is Quran and not to follow other sources (either books, teaching, traditions or sayings), but then you denied that and tell me that prophet Muhammad leaving his own "hadith". Which you can't prove to me, none of Quran verses saying that prophet leaving another teaching called hadith. But we have to follow him (Muhammad), of course to follow Qur'an which came through him! What are other teaching sent down to him except Quran? None brothers, none.

The only ahsanal hadith is Quran itself, as stated by Qur'an.
There are proof in Quran clearly stated "NOT to follow other hadith other than this Qur'an", but you both skipped that verse.

If you study Quran carefully you will know it. I bet you never study Quran from cover to cover, but reading Arabic Quran perhaps yes, but study?
And you will find so many "hadith" contradicts the Qur'an, so if you follow "hadith", how come you said you follow Qur'an but practicing something else?


Isn't this the grand strategy of Satan to duped you to believe something other than God's commands? Do you forget that Satan will do their best mislead all people? Haven't you got the warning?

Do you forgot that our forefather Adam duped by Satan? Satan didn't ask Adam to reject or object God's command, Satan persuaded Adam to believe in something else!

2:36 But the devil duped them, and caused their eviction therefrom. We said, "Go down as enemies of one another. On Earth shall be your habitation and provision for awhile."

God told us that Satan is our greatest enemy to the end of time, but you take them lightly. You just follow other unreliable teachings and felt okay. Remember your fate (as death or alive, paradise or hell) depend on YOUR CHOICE and ACTION in this world.

So if you put your fate on some other's sayings (traditions, ulama, ustadz, even Bukhari, Muslim etc) which all of them are FALLIBLE, means you have put your fate on a BIG RISK!

If you put your fate with Allah alone, trust His words alone, you are holding to a rope that never fail.

2:256 And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

Quran is the firm handhold that will never break, never!

But you choose another fallible sources instead, which surely will break someday.

So we have come to the conclusion, you believe hadith is needed aside Qur'an and will stay using hadith, and then let me also follow what I believe... Qur'an alone.

Peace brothers.

Bro ,

Your argument so far is in the line of being emotional. Can you argue with facts?

I ask you again , what do you mean by completeness of the Quran. Please note , none of us are saying that the Quran is incomplete. Can you address the issue instead of being defensive. Being defensive is an indicator that you do not have any facts to argue your case.

You presented a number of evidence from the Quran in it stating not to follow the hadith? The question that has been asked - what is the definition of hadith according to Quran? Until now you have been evading this point but still insisting on your interpolation of verses. I give an example of Quran31:6 (sahih international) that Quranist like you always use to argue your case
And of the people is he who buys the amusement of speech to mislead from the way of Allah without knowledge and who takes it in ridicule. Those will have a humiliating punishment.
Quranist like you zoom into the word 'lahwal hadith' then claim that it is the hadith Rasulullah(saw). This is the very point I am stressing that Quranist like you distort the Quran. The word 'lahwal' orلَهْوَhas the following meaning
Lane lexicon
- He became diverted from it, so as to forget it.
- Diversion ; pastime ; sport ; play: or especially, such as is vain , or frivolous ; idle
- relief of the mind by means which wisdom does not require
H. Anthony Salmoné,         An Advanced Learner's Arabic-English Dictionarya. [ Bi ], Amused himself, played, toyed with; delighted in, was fond of.
b. . ( n. ac. لَهْيَان [ لَهْوَاْنُ 33I ], لُهِيّ ) [ 'An ], Forgot, consoled himself for.
In context how can this be hadith Rasulullah(saw) or hadith in general? This is because hadiths is part in case the extension or explanation of the Quran in rememberance of Allah.

Since you claim to have studied the Quran carefully from cover to cover then it is no problem for you to provide the verses that detail on the 'how to' of salat. Until now , yilek from you. All you argued for is the commandment of salat and conflated 'and' with 'then'. This is again distortion of the Quran.

BTW , how do you study the Quran (carefully from cover to cover) without any reference detaining the reason and circumstance of each verse? You being a Quranist have already abandon all hadith , Al Nuzul etc. Issit just your literal intrepretation devoid of reasoning (aql) and reflection (fikr)?

You claim that there are so many hadiths that contradict the Quran. To us , the followers of sunna , first and foremost anything that contradict the Quran is discarded. Secondly , can you provide a hadith that contradict the Quran that we muslims follow instead of the Quran? Oh yeah , the so called 4 steps against the 12 steps of wudhu. Do you you know what is obligatory and what is recommended in wudhu? We have gone thru this issue and till now , no satisfactory answer from you.

Can you for a moment stop your strawman argument of the hadith in competition with the Quran (as this is just an imaginary problem in the mind of a Quranist) and please focus on the issues that have been put forward like the 'how to' of salat based on the Quran alone. Salat is one of the pillars of Islam. Until now you are so scared to address this.

Last edited by sam1528 on 9-12-2014 06:27 PM

kid Publish time 9-12-2014 08:06 PM

sam1528 posted on 9-12-2014 06:22 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Bro ,

Your argument so far is in the line of being emotional. Can you argue with facts?

I ask you again , what do you mean by completeness of the Quran. Please note , none of us are saying that the Quran is incomplete. Can you address the issue instead of being defensive. Being defensive is an indicator that you do not have any facts to argue your case

Because my facts is not considered a fact by you bro, it is that simple. But I'm not giving up on you bro.
For the sake of argument, let us discuss again, this time in detailed word per word analyzing:

6: 114: Afaghayra Allahi abtaghee hakamanwahuwa allathee anzala ilaykumu alkitaba mufassalan...
Pickthall: "Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained?"

I highlight there the word "mufassalan" which mean fully explained or fully detailed. There is no double meaning to this bro, it is very clear that God said Quran is fully explained. So do you still need to seek others? if we seek others to find more explaination, than we don't uphold this verse bro, literally.

Then lets examine the next verse:

6:115 Watammat kalimatu rabbika sidqanwaAAadlan la mubaddila likalimatihi wahuwa assameeAAualAAaleem
Pickthall: “Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice..."or in Malay translation: "Dan telah sempurnalah Kalimah Tuhanmu (Al-Quran)...

I highlight there the word "tammat" or means (has been) fulfilled. This is a familiar word in Malay, if you see a movie and the ending called "tamat", it means the movie has been concluded, has been perfected, it is the end. So the meaning of (Quran) is "tamat" means as it is. There is no more verses or ayat after Quran. So it is fully accomplished, perfect, complete, tamat.

So if we still seek other 'kalimat', then clearly we don't consider Quran as "tamat" bro.

The claim of the pro-hadith writers that God revealed to His prophet words or teachings outside of the Quran (what they call hadith Qudsi) is in clear violation of above verses. It is also in violation of 17:73 and 69:43-47 where God very clearly warns the prophet not to ever claim that he received any revelations from God other than the Quran.

You presented a number of evidence from the Quran in it stating not to follow the hadith? The question that has been asked - what is the definition of hadith according to Quran? Until now you have been evading this point but still insisting on your interpolation of verses. I give an example of Quran31:6 (sahih international) that Quranist like you always use to argue your case


- Do not follow other hadith than this Qur'an, it is clear from this verse:
7:185 fabi-ayyi hadeethinbaAAdahu yu/minoon
"... In what fact after this will they believe?"

There are many more Quran verses which is very clear on hadith stand which I already presented on post #39 in this thread.
But we will come to that with word by word analysis later bro.

Lets first clear the above verses 6:114-115, about the completeness and fully detailed Quran.

Last edited by kid on 9-12-2014 08:07 PM

sam1528 Publish time 9-12-2014 10:15 PM

kid posted on 9-12-2014 08:06 PM static/image/common/back.gif

Because my facts is not considered a fact by you bro, it is that simple. But I'm not giving up on you bro.
For the sake of argument, let us discuss again, this time in detailed word per word analyzing:

6: 114: Afaghayra Allahi abtaghee hakamanwahuwa allathee anzala ilaykumu alkitaba mufassalan...
Pickthall: "Shall I seek other than Allah for judge, when He it is Who hath revealed unto you (this) Scripture, fully explained?"

I highlight there the word "mufassalan" which mean fully explained or fully detailed. There is no double meaning to this bro, it is very clear that God said Quran is fully explained. So do you still need to seek others? if we seek others to find more explaination, than we don't uphold this verse bro, literally.

Then lets examine the next verse:

6:115 Watammat kalimatu rabbika sidqanwaAAadlan la mubaddila likalimatihi wahuwa assameeAAualAAaleem
Pickthall: “Perfected is the Word of thy Lord in truth and justice..."or in Malay translation: "Dan telah sempurnalah Kalimah Tuhanmu (Al-Quran)...

I highlight there the word "tammat" or means (has been) fulfilled. This is a familiar word in Malay, if you see a movie and the ending called "tamat", it means the movie has been concluded, has been perfected, it is the end. So the meaning of (Quran) is "tamat" means as it is. There is no more verses or ayat after Quran. So it is fully accomplished, perfect, complete, tamat.

So if we still seek other 'kalimat', then clearly we don't consider Quran as "tamat" bro.

The claim of the pro-hadith writers that God revealed to His prophet words or teachings outside of the Quran (what they call hadith Qudsi) is in clear violation of above verses. It is also in violation of 17:73 and 69:43-47 where God very clearly warns the prophet not to ever claim that he received any revelations from God other than the Quran.

Your so called facts is not considered being facts by me because you have not presented any. You are just jumping from one issue to another but never an issue has been pursued to its completion and backing it up with something factual.

I asked a very simple question. What do you mean by completeness of the Quran? You have yet to answer but now you are referencing Quran6:114 in an effort to answer the question. What you have done is to pick up a word from a verse of the Quran that you think support your worldview being a Quranist and argue on it. You are just microscoping the word instead of trying to understand the verse in context.

Quran6:114 (sahih international)
, "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.
Even if I read it as per what the text stated , it is about seeking judgement and referencing it to what Allah has revealed in detail with regards to the said judgement.

You are looking at the root of   ف ص ل   which makes up the word
http://corpus.quran.com/wordimage?id=18151
which literally means explained in detail.

The question here is what is explained in detail per the context of Quran6:114?

Lets cross reference with several of the major tafseers :
Jalalayn
The following was revealed when they asked the Prophet (s) to appoint an arbiter between him and themselves. Say: Shall I seek, demand, other than God as a judge, an arbiter between you and me, when it is He Who revealed to you the Book, the Qur’ān, clearly explained?, wherein truth is distinguished from falsehood. Those to whom We have given the Scripture, the Torah, the likes of ‘Abd Allāh b. Salām and his companions, know that it is revealed (read munzal or munazzal) from your Lord in truth; so do not be of the waverers, the doubters, regarding it: this is intended to affirm to the disbelievers that it is the truth.
Tanwir Al MiqbasThen, say to them, O Muhammad: (Shall I seek other than Allah for judge) shall I worship as Lord other than Allah, (when He it is who has revealed unto you) you are your prophet ((this) Scripture) this Qur'an through the intermediary of Gabriel, (fully explained?) explaining fully the lawful and the unlawful; it is also said: it is revealed in instalments, a few verses on each occasion. (Those unto whom We gave the Scripture) those to whom We have given knowledge of the Torah, i.e. 'Abdullah Ibn Salam and his followers (know) are certain on the basis of their Scripture (that it) i.e. the Qur'an (is revealed from thy Lord in truth) with commands and prohibitions; it is also said that this means: Gabriel is sent by your Lord with the Truth, i.e. with the Qur'an. (So be not thou (O Muhammad) of the waverers) of those who doubt that they might not know this.
Muhammad Asad Commentary (pg190 of 907)
"Am I , then, to look unto anyone but God for judgment 99 ], when it is He who has bestowed up on you from on high this divine writ, clearly spelling out the truth?"

100 The expression mufassalan could also be rendered as "in a manner that brings out the distinction (fail) between truth and falsehood" (Zamakhshari). The use of the plural "you" indicates that the divine writ is addressed to all who may come to know it.


The context of the said verse is the judgement between truth and falsehood and it has been explained in detailed in the Quran. This again is in reference to our salvation. Refer to my point of Allah expectation of us to achieve salvation , my post#71.

You cannot microscope a word in any verse then use it to claim for the whole of the Quran just because you are looking at whatever means to support your worldview being a Quranist. This is again distorting the Quran for your own worldview. This is just dead wrong.

You are again affirming my point. It is the Quranists who are distorting the Quran to fit their worldview. You are doing the same thing like Rashad Khalifa but he went one step further - changing the Quran to fit his so called number 19 miracle.



- Do not follow other hadith than this Qur'an, it is clear from this verse:
7:185 fabi-ayyi hadeethinbaAAdahu yu/minoon
"... In what fact after this will they believe?"

There are many more Quran verses which is very clear on hadith stand which I already presented on post #39 in this thread.
But we will come to that with word by word analysis later bro.

Lets first clear the above verses 6:114-115, about the completeness and fully detailed Quran.
Quran7:185 is not stating anything about Hadith Rasulullah(saw). Refer to my post #71 which I will repeat :
The noun “hadith” occurs in the Qur’an twenty three times (4.42, 4.78, 4.87, 4.140, 6.68, 7.185, 12.111, 18.6, 20.9, 31.6, 33.53, 39.23, 45.6, 51.24, 52.34, 53.59, 56.81, 66.3, 68.44, 77.50, 79.15, 85.17, 88.1). Its plural form “ahadith” is found five times (12.6, 12.21, 12.101, 23.44, 34.19). In these twenty eight verses, the term broadly means “narrative,” “story,” “speech,” or “news,” which may or may not be religious.

Of the thirty six occurrences of the term “hadith” only one is linked to something specific to Prophet Muhammad. This is verse 93.11 where the Prophet is commanded by God to speak about His favor to him, i.e. making him a Prophet: “As for the favor of your Lord, haddith (speak about).” But even in this solitary instance, the verb “haddith” is used in its generic meaning.

Therefore there is no such thing that the Quran prohibit the Hadith of Prophet Muhammad(saw). These all exist only in your imagination because you are caught being a Quranist and you desperately want to justify your position up to a point of distorting the Quran.

You don't look good bro ......

mashimaru83 Publish time 9-12-2014 10:34 PM

kid posted on 9-12-2014 02:55 PM static/image/common/back.gif
Ok so both of you insist that Quran alone is not complete, you have to follow other source which is...
kid
I presented numerous proof from Qur'an itself that saying the only hadith to follow is Quran and not to follow other sources (either books, teaching, traditions or sayings), but then you denied that and tell me that prophet Muhammad leaving his own "hadith". Which you can't prove to me, none of Quran verses saying that prophet leaving another teaching called hadith. But we have to follow him (Muhammad), of course to follow Qur'an which came through him! What are other teaching sent down to him except Quran? None brothers, none.That is incorrect bro. The said verse I posted earlier clearly stated that we have to follow Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. When we say to follow a person, it also means to follow his actions, his conducts, his teachings; and in the case of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w., besides following his actions/conducts/teachings we also need to follow what has been revealed to him which is Al-Quran.

Again, I repeat that the said verse clearly stated that we need to follow Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. You are interpretating it as to follow Al-Quran only. Mind you that Allah s.w.t. is clearly referring to Prophet Muhammad (that by iself include his actions/conducts/teachings and also Al-Quran). Only your interpretation is limiting it to Al-Quran only and excluding the Prophet Muhammad s.a.w actions/conducts.

Your reasoning is also flawed, at first you said that we should not follow other sources (either books, teachings, traditions or sayings) but Al-Quran. Logically speaking, whatever you said or any interpretation that you came up with were also part of that other sources, thus need to be dismissed immediately. Your 'objective' criteria is having issue here, it defeats your own argument. Your reasoning doesn't seem to be correct.

kid
But you choose another fallible sources instead, which surely will break someday.Unfortunately your interpretation is also considered fallible sources as you as a human being is also subjected to mistakes.


Last edited by mashimaru83 on 10-12-2014 07:12 AM

kid Publish time 10-12-2014 09:01 AM

mashimaru83 posted on 9-12-2014 10:34 PM static/image/common/back.gif
That is incorrect bro. The said verse I posted earlier clearly stated that we have to follow Proph ...
That is incorrect bro. The said verse I posted earlier clearly stated that we have to follow Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. When we say to follow a person, it also means to follow his actions, his conducts, his teachings; and in the case of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w., besides following his actions/conducts/teachings we also need to follow what has been revealed to him which is Al-Quran.
This is a misconception bro, if we read Quran carefully, what it means by following the prophet is to follow the message, which is Quran. Not to follow his actions, his conducts outside the Quran which claimed by scholars.

The claim that the hadith of the prophet offer guidance is in clear violation of the following Quranic verse:

"Say, "I possess no power to harm you, nor to guide you." 72:21

Clearly the prophet duty is not to guide anyone. Because the duty to guide a person is on Allah, He will guide whoever He wills. He knows best whom deserve to be guided, not the prophet or messenger duty. Prophet's duty is to deliver the message only.

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)" 5:92

God is the most efficient in expressing any meaning. All Quranic words are chosen by God to convey a precise meaning.

We never read anywhere in the Quran words like "Obey God and obey Muhammad" or obey Jesus, or Moses. The words used are always "obey the messenger". This is to emphasise that it is the "message" of God that is to be obeyed and not the personal words or views of the messenger.

As mentioned earlier, the word Messenger is derived from the word Message. If there was no message there would be no messenger. To Obey the Messenger means to obey the message he delivered.

Again, I repeat that the said verse clearly stated that we need to follow Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. You are interpretating it as to follow Al-Quran only.
This is the misconception the same as above. It stated to "obey the messenger" not to "Obey Muhammad", this is empasizing that we shall obey the message, not the personal action/conducts of Muhammad.

Many also use this verse to back their claim that we have to follow the prophet actions, conducts:

"The messenger of God has set a good example for those among you who seek God and the Last Day, and constantly think about God." 33:21

From these words we note that God is very specific in describing the capacity in which the prophet has set a good example. The good example lies in his constant thinking of God and how he sought God and the last day.

Sadly, the followers of hadith and Sunna have manipulated this glorious verse in order to imply that we should eat as the prophet ate, sleep as he did and even enter the toilet with the same foot which he used

To make the issue indisputable, God asserts in the Quran that the only Sunna is the Sunna of God. Nowhere in the Quran is there any mention of the Sunna of Muhammad.

"You will find that the Sunna of Allah is the only Sunna" (33:62....35:43.....48:23).

God also informed all believers that prophet Muhammad was commanded not to teach any other teachings, or he would incur severe punishment from God:

"It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him." 69:43-47

Those who insist that the prophet left us a second source of religious law (hadith) are either accusing the prophet of disobeying God's commands in 69:43-47, or do not really understand the Quran.

Verse for thought:

"Say (O Muhammad), "I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me (Quran). I am no more than a profound warner." 46:9 (also in 10:15).

Prophet Muhammad even has no idea what willhappen to him, how can he will guarantee that you will be guided by him?

Clearly from above verses, it is Allah who will guide anyone, prophet Muhammad duty only deliver the message, and he can't guarantee anyone. We shall follow the footsteps of him, to obey the messenger means to obey the message (Quran).

Your reasoning is also flawed, at first you said that we should not follow other sources (either books, teachings, traditions or sayings) but Al-Quran. Logically speaking, whatever you said or any interpretation that you came up with were also part of that other sources, thus need to be dismissed immediately. Your 'objective' criteria is having issue here, it defeats your own argument. Your reasoning doesn't seem to be correct.

kid
But you choose another fallible sources instead, which surely will break someday.
Unfortunately your interpretation is also considered fallible sources as you as a human being is also subjected to mistakes.



No that is not my interpretation, it is what stated clearly in Quran (the only infallible source):

"We did not leave anything out of this book” 6:38

”Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” 6:114

”We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the believer” 16:89

I dont try to interpret the above verses, try reading and interpret yourself the clear verses! Last edited by kid on 10-12-2014 09:10 AM

mashimaru83 Publish time 11-12-2014 12:20 AM

kid posted on 10-12-2014 09:01 AM static/image/common/back.gif
This is a misconception bro, if we read Quran carefully, what it means by following...
kid
This is a misconception bro, if we read Quran carefully, what it means by following the prophet is to follow the message, which is Quran. Not to follow his actions, his conducts outside the Quran which claimed by scholars. Well, that is just your opinion. Allah s.w.t clearly asked us to follow Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. So, you cannot say that it was a claim made by scholars.

Let's address your point:
kid
Clearly the prophet duty is not to guide anyone. Because the duty to guide a person is on Allah, He will guide whoever He wills. He knows best whom deserve to be guided, not the prophet or messenger duty. Prophet's duty is to deliver the message only.You are simply wrong. Al-Quran 72:21 clearly stated that Prophet Muhammad s.a.w has no power to cause harm and has no power to bring people to right direction.
"Say, "I possess no power to harm you, nor to guide you." 72:21It clearly means that Prophet Muhammad s.a.w.:
- has no power to harm other people.
- has no power to guide other people.

It is far away from from your interpretation which is 'He is not to guide human being'. 'He is not to guide human being' and 'He has no power to guide human being' are totally different meanings. If you don't trust my English, go check it with good English speaker or look at Bahasa Melayu translation for that verse.

"And obey God and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that the sole duty of the messenger is the deliverance (of the message)" 5:92

God is the most efficient in expressing any meaning. All Quranic words are chosen by God to convey a precise meaning.

We never read anywhere in the Quran words like "Obey God and obey Muhammad" or obey Jesus, or Moses. The words used are always "obey the messenger". This is to emphasise that it is the "message" of God that is to be obeyed and not the personal words or views of the messenger.Again, your interpretation is not correct. For Al-Quran 5:92, the "(of the message)" can be any message, not just Al-Quran. Message can also be conveyed through actions/conducts, so it is not necessarily limited to Al-Quran only. Your interpretation is limiting it to Al-Quran one and only, yet the verse doesn't use the word 'Al-Quran'. Again, it's just your interpretation.kid
As mentioned earlier, the word Messenger is derived from the word Message. If there was no message there would be no messenger. To Obey the Messenger means to obey the message he delivered.
A messenger can deliver any message. The question here is why are you limiting it to Al-Quran only? Prophet Muhammad s.a.w can also convey his message through his actions/conducts. So, his actions/conducts can also be considered as part of the message.

kid
This is the misconception the same as above. It stated to "obey the messenger" not to "Obey Muhammad", this is empasizing that we shall obey the message, not the personal action/conducts of Muhammad.
That is incorrect. In english, the 'er' behind the messenger is used to refer to the one who carry the message. So, to obey the messenger means to obey the one who carry the message. It is clear that 'obey the message' and 'obey the messenger' have different meaning bro. Again, if you don't trust my English, please refer to native English speaker or English expert and please come back and correct me if I'm wrong.

Allah s.w.t use the word messenger but not Prophet Muhammad s.a.w clearly indicates that the duty of conveying the message is not explicitly for Prophet Muhammad s.a.w only but also to any of Allah's messenger. So, it is incorrect to say that Allah is emphasizing that we shall obey the message and not the personal actions/conducts of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. It's more logical to say that it's the duty of any of Allah's messenger to convey the message. This is misunderstanding from your side.

And also, please tell me what is the arabic word used for the 'messenger' in the said verse? Does it refer to 'message' or 'person'? Kindly explain.

kid
"The messenger of God has set a good example for those among you who seek God and the Last Day, and constantly think about God." 33:21

From these words we note that God is very specific in describing the capacity in which the prophet has set a good example. The good example lies in his constant thinking of God and how he sought God and the last day.

Sadly, the followers of hadith and Sunna have manipulated this glorious verse in order to imply thatwe should eat as the prophet ate, sleep as he did and even enter the toilet with the same foot which he usedThat is incorrect interpretation. The verse clearly means: The good example was set by the messenger for people to follow. So, which people? People who seek God, the Last Day, and the one who always think of God.
At least it should be 'good example lies in the messenger' and not 'good examples lies in people who has constant thinking of God'... You are shuffling the words around. Al-Quran interpretation doesn't work that way bro.

We manipulating the verse? Apparently you are the one who is doing so here.

kid
To make the issue indisputable, God asserts in the Quran that the only Sunna is the Sunna of God. Nowhere in the Quran is there any mention of the Sunna of Muhammad.

"You will find that the Sunna of Allah is the only Sunna" (33:62....35:43.....48:23).
Again, another incorrect interpretation by you.
Al-Quran 33:62 (Sahih International)
the established way of Allah with those who passed on before; and you will not find in the way of Allah any change.

Al-Quran 35:43 (Sahih International)
arrogance in the land and plotting of evil; but the evil plot does not encompass except its own people. Then do they await except the way of the former peoples? But you will never find in the way of Allah any change, and you will never find in the way of Allah any alteration.

Al-Quran 48:23 (Sahih International)
the established way of Allah which has occurred before. And never will you find in the way of Allah any change.
Whichever direction you go, none of the verse stated that 'Sunna of Allah is the only Sunna'. The verses only stated that we will never find any change in the way of Allah. Or if you want to use the word Sunna, then it becomes 'we will never find any change in the Sunna of Allah'. All of them are emphasizing on 'no change on the way of Allah', not what as you put it 'Sunna Allah is the only Sunna'. 'No change' and 'No other sunna' are two different things. You seem to have comprehension problem bro.

kid
"It (the Quran) is a revelation from the Lord of the universe. Had he (Muhammad) uttered any other teachings, We would have grabbed him by the right, and We would have severed his Wateen (Major artery of the heart), none of you could have helped him." 69:43-47

Those who insist that the prophet left us a second source of religious law (hadith) are either accusing the prophet of disobeying God's commands in 69:43-47, or do not really understand the Quran.
Kindly bring forward the translation (publisher/link) that you are using so that I can cross reference the translation and do further discussion.

kid
"Say (O Muhammad), "I am not different from other messengers. I have no idea what will happen to me or to you. I only follow what is revealed to me (Quran). I am no more than a profound warner." 46:9 (also in 10:15).

Prophet Muhammad even has no idea what willhappen to him, how can he will guarantee that you will be guided by him?

Clearly from above verses, it is Allah who will guide anyone, prophet Muhammad duty only deliver the message, and he can't guarantee anyone. We shall follow the footsteps of him, to obey the messenger means to obey the message (Quran).
It's logical for Prophet Muhammad s.a.w to say the he has no idea what will happen in the future, he is just a human being after all. And you are asking "how can he will guarantee that you will be guided by him?" as an argument. You are arguing based on a question that is not reasonable at all. Prophet Muhammad s.a.w have never made any guarantee that we will be guided by him. Somehow you are using that (guarantee) as a criteria to judge the issue and arrive to the conclusion. Again, Prophet Muhammad s.a.w never made such claim, so you cannot use that as a criteria or argue based on that. So I would say that you are starting with wrong argument here, so we have to dismiss your conclusion.

kid
"We did not leave anything out of this book” 6:38

”Shall I seek other than God as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?” 6:114

”We have revealed to you this book to provide explanations for everything, and guidance and mercy and good news for the believer” 16:89
For Al-Quran 6:38
Sahih International
And there is no creature on the earth or bird that flies with its wings except communities like you. We have not neglected in the Register a thing. Then unto their Lord they will be gathered.
In this case, please address the whole verse as it is. I agree with bro sam, so please stop zooming in. Please address the evidences (verses/etc) as it is ought to be. It is easy to make mistake if you don't address the verse in the correct context. Now that I have put the whole verse, it becomes clearer what the verse is actually talking about.

For Al-Quran 6:114
Sahih International
, "Then is it other than Allah I should seek as judge while it is He who has revealed to you the Book explained in detail?" And those to whom We gave the Scripture know that it is sent down from your Lord in truth, so never be among the doubters.
The source of the teaching (actions/conducts) of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w also came from Allah s.w.t. So, I don't see any issue here. And since the Book has all the details explanation, then it's also logical to say that we have to follow Prophet Muhammad s.a.w as the Book has clearly said that in detail. Refer to Al-Quran 4:59
Sahih International
O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best and best in result.
Your argument "obey the Messenger means obey the message" doesn't work here. Above verse clearly stated that we also have to obey the authority (person). So, besides language issue that I stated above, your interpretation is clearly incorrect after all.

For Al-Quran 16:89
Sahih International
And the Day when We will resurrect among every nation a witness over them from themselves. And We will bring you, , as a witness over your nation. And We have sent down to you the Book as clarification for all things and as guidance and mercy and good tidings for the Muslims.
Al-Quran has been sent as clarification for all things. All things can also include the actions/conducts of Prophet Muhammad s.a.w. Again, I don't see any issue here.

Last edited by mashimaru83 on 12-12-2014 08:14 AM

edy137 Publish time 15-12-2014 03:58 PM

Tuhan memang suruh gunakan aqal... bukan jadi ikut ikutan tok sami agamawan... AQ itu untuk semua manusia... bukan untuk kasta sami2... dan golongan macai jadi ikut ikutan macam binatang ternak... :)
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